This article was actually started early August when I started to round up the knives for the testing. I was hoping to have testing done by the end of September, but because of delays in communication with Yoshikin (the manufacturer of Global knives) and Kyocera (who's ceramic knives public relation e-mail doesn't work), I didn't get the final knife until the middle of October (I just went and bought it).
The tests were performed over two days (two Saturdays) and meticulous notes were kept. After the first day of testing, I really didn't want to continue with the article because I didn't want to deal with continuously washing and drying eleven knives and performing all the comparisons over and over (mainly due to limited counter space). By the end of the first two tests, I already knew which knives were probably going to come out on top - but I needed to finish the testing and documenting to prove it. Tina helped considerably the second day of testing by taking notes for me as I dictated while slicing and chopping. (I also cleared off the dining room table so I would only have to wash all the knives between tests instead of everytime I ran out of space.)
The write up took a lot longer than I expected, and technically I don't think I'm really done. The article took about five days to write, and I still remember more stuff that I want to add - so don't be surprised if the article changes to become a bit more detailed or clearer as time goes on.
Anyway, I hope my readers will find this article informative and interesting.
Excellent article!
I'd love to read another test when you've had a chance to sharpen them on the Nortons. I rarely have a knife come from the factory/maker with a satisfactory edge, especially Tojiros. If you were to use your stones and put the same 8000grit edge on each knife I think you would be able to do a test that exposed the differences in the quality of the steel. Just a thought...
that guy's right, factory sharpening is rarely up to snuff.
The tomato skin test, for example, is based entirely on the sharpness of the knife.
I'm a big Henckels/Wustoff fan, I have a few that I give regular love and maintenance and they could split a hair.
The only knife that is exempt from my criticism is Cutco which is supposed to never need sharpening. (overpriced garbage)
I'm really curious to see how well your knives hold up over time. For instance, the Forschner Victorinox knife (from what I can tell) is not full-tang, and I have had experience with such things coming apart at the handle. I'm also curious if you're going to have to resharpen some of your top-of-the-list knives more often. Can you do some kind of repetetive motion testing?
The cutting tests mostly depend on sharpness and edge geometry, which is why the Japanese[-style] knives tended to perform better than the Western knives. I think if they all had their edge profiles reshaped and edges sharpened so that the edges were exactly the same, they would perform identically.
Then comes the matter of the steel. Japanese knives have harder steel than Western knives do, which increases wear resistance at the expense of brittleness (proportional to the hardness). This means that Japanese knives tend to hold their edges longer than Western knives do, and because the blades are thinner, they cut more easily.
Personally, I would have loved to see a Chinese cleaver (Chan Chi Kee, Suien, Nenox, etc.) included in the mix.
Misono UX-10, stamped blade
http://knifeoutlet.com/revolution.htm
Fuji Cutlery, the manufacturer of Tojiro, sent me an e-mail recommending U.S. buyers to use
Korin Japanese Trading Corp. for best convenience.
I was disappointed (to the point of shaking my head in disbelief) that you tested the knives as supplied by the factory. Any knife in regular service is going to lose its factory edge very quickly and wind up with an edge corresponding to the sharpening technique -- so the relevance of testing the factory edge is marginal.
The review would have been much stronger if you had used a well regarded local sharpening service or a consitent, repeatable system (such as the Australian Furi hones) to bring all of the knives to the same edge.
Consistent sharpening does not lead to consistent performance. Blade hardness, composition, bevel geometry, weight, and thickness all play a part in how well a knife cuts.
I highly recommend you re-release this review (which is of marginal utility at this point) after re-conducting it with consistently sharpened blades.
Great <i>idea</i> though. I was really looking forward to reading it.
:huh: I appreciate all the information on kitchen knives. I would like to ask if anyone has experience with the knives offered by A.G. Russell at www.agrussell.com?
They are offering Damascus kitchen knives w/VG-10 core, A.G. Russell kitchen knives w/wood Rucarta handles and KAI kitchen knives.
How do these compare with Henckels, Wusthof or the MAC MTH-80 you recommend?
I'm not a fan of full bolsters, but I've heard good things about A.G. Russell and VG-10 steel.
I have put my set of Forschner Victorinox knives through many years of hard daily use, and they hold up remarkably well. No problems with the handles. They take and keep an edge.
I think it bears noting that the reviewer bought these at a restaurant supply store. Knives used in industry are different from those used by amateur chefs. They are meant to be abused, run through the sterilizing dishwasher, and so on. These knives conspicuously display the NSF logo for the health inspector to see.
I have had fancier and more expensive knives, and I may try some of those reviewed here. But, I can absolutely say that the Forschner Victorinox are great knives at a bargain price.
I disagree with the commenter who thought this rating was somehow faulty because you evaluated the knives using the factory edge. First of all, if he's really that anal to demand your review included custom sharpening of each knife then perhaps he should just spend the time to do his own review.
Second, thanks for the tip on the Mac knife, a brand I have never used but have now added to my Amazon wishlist.
As I was a chef for 18 years, then a computer network design, I feel that I can speak on this topic.
1) The most important part of a knife is the hand that holds it
2) A knife is a very personal ,every one has there likes and dislikes
3) A factory edge should be sufficient for any home user, We only had our knifes sharpened 1 a week, honing is important
4) All knifes tested here are GOOD knifes, this falls into personal taste, grip, hand size, weight and a mired of other factors.
Interesting write up Michael. This should be an ongoing test. I would also review the Cooks Illustrated knife tests to see how they worked testing as well. I would also highly recommend that all the knives be sent off to a reputable sharpener who can put a quality edge on all the knives - at least then all the makers are on the same playing field as far as edge goes. After that, they can all be steeled before use which should last the duration of any further testing. I do think the testing is a bit biased because knives are very personal - the more people you can include the better. Different hand sizes, male/female. I think continued testing and updates are definitely warranted.
Great article, my eyes lit up when I heard you were going to review the Kyocera ceramic knife.
I have "heard" great things but wanted some objective opinions. Anyone care to comment or would Mike be willing to test some cereamics down the road?
Sounds like for now, the MAC will top my wish list.
I have had a set of the original Mac knive since the Mid 70's. They are the best knives I have ever found and they require minimal sharpening on the special ceramic stones they have. I just purchases some new "better" Mac Knives and my husband promptly cut off the fat pad portion of his finger requiring a trip to the emergency room. REALLY Sharp knives - right out of the box.
Excellent review, Michael. I am wondering if you can add more comments about the feel of the different knives. For example, how they balanced (tip-heavy, neutral, handle-heavy), the ergonomics of the handles (size, feel of material, shape), and the curvature and width of the blades as it affect use (for example, the wider more pronounced belly of the German/Swiss brands versus the narrower straighter profile on most of the Japanese blades). While it's true that preference on each of these is a personal matter, some description and comparison here between the different knives will nevertheless be very valuable.
Also, I didn't follow your comment about the "shallow taper" to the Global's blade. Are you referring to the curvature of its blade? However, the MAC's don't look any more curved; in fact, the MTH-80 seems to an almost flat cutting edge (like a santoku).
Though I am a very satisfied owner of CUTCO knives, I am not surprised by the results of your testing. The French Chef knife is the one CUTCO knife in my set that I do not particularly care to use. Unlike most other CUTCO knives, the French Chef does not have a Double-D edge. As a result, it requires regular sharpening.
In a previous comment, someone stated that the CUTCO knife That is not true. CUTCO's forever sharpness guarantee only states that (http://www.cutco.com/jsp/customer/guarantee.jsp)
As an owner of CUTCO knives, I know that my straight-edged knives need regular sharpening. I did not purchase my set because I need a top performing Chef's knife. I purchased my set because the CUTCO steak and carving knives (with Double-D edges) cut well and are a pleasure for me to use.
Good test, one thing though. You said that you'd steeled them all prior to testing, to realign the edge. I hope that doesn't mean you steeled the japanese knives as well? That's rarely a good idea. If you did, I sure hope you used a ceramic steel ...
/Torq
why should one not steel a mac knife? just bout two chef knives from mac, a diamond steel and a japanese water stone for sharpening it. all from a very reputable chef store in NYC. Please tell me what to do if you have correct information please.
On hard Japanese blades I would only use glass smooth or very fine ceramic steels like the ones found here:
http://www.handamerican.com/steel3.html
With coarsely textured steels one has a very high risk of damaging a hard Japanese blade...
Personally I have avoided steels and use my highest grit polishing stone (8000) or flatbed leather hone to bring an edge back to life.
If the diamond steel you bought is very fine and is not harsh on the edge then I think you will be in good shape. I would advise using as little pressure as possible when using the steel. The weight of the knife is more than enough...
I was a big Forschner Victorinox fan for many years. However, I grew tired of sharpening them after every major usage. Several years ago, I found a deal on Wusthof Grand Prix knives overseas and purchased a set. Believe me, the factory edge on these knives was not up to par. Sharpening them made a major difference in their performance immediately. However, I had to get use to the heft of the Grand Prix's verses the Victorinox's light weight. About a year ago, I purchased a Henckels Four Star Multi-edge 8" chef's knife. The blade has a 3" wavy edge section about a third of the way back from the tip. This knife was razor sharp right out of the box and the larger handle was more to my liking. I still have yet to sharpen this knife, I just steel it before each use. The wavy edge really is a great feature in that I can cut with the tip, slice easily with the wavy edge portion and chop with the rear portion. So I would suggest, as others already have, that you have all these knives sharpened and test again. You might also test utilizing others in order to analize handle shape and weight preferences. I am very happy to have found your article.
Could someone comment on ways to find a good knife sharpener? I don't have any friends in around me that have sent anything to a knife sharpener before.
Get some good stones and learn how to do it yourself. It's a very rewarding skill.
http://users.ameritech.net/knives/ward.htm
That should get you started. Of course, if you don't want to do it freehand, or if you want to start off with a guide, there are several good sharpening systems available, the premier being the EdgePro Apex or Pro model.
I very much appreciate this article, it is one of the better knife comparisons that I have come across.
Having said that, I do have a criticsm. It is not a fair comparison to compare knives with a factory edge. Some manufactuorers intentionally leave the knive a little blunt for safety in transportation. You cannot get a like-for-like comparison with a factory edge because you can't know that they all have comparably sharp (or blunt) edges out of the factory.
I own a couple of Whustof knives and the difference between factory edge and newly sharpened is night and day. They are one company that has a policy of keeping the knives rather blunt and I did have cutting issues with them out of the factory.
I don't agree with the authors assertion that people reading this article and buying knives at this price are the sort of people who use the knives with a factory edge. I think most people reading this article are likely to be rather geeky about their knives.
To me, a good knife is also about how it performs over time and how well it does re-sharpen over and over again. Though I do appreciate the difficulty of defining and measuring this attribute. At a minimum I would love to see what would happen if all these knives where taken to a reputable knife sharper and the tests re-done.
The favourite knife was also the only knife to be bevelled. I wonder if that was the difference? Anyone got any thoughts on that?
:unsure: I just visited this site for the first and loved it. However, I was really surprised at how low you rated the Henckel Pro-S. I have been using Henckel Four Star knives for going on seven years now and as a previous comment mentioned I can split hairs with them and I have never done anything other than steel the knives and I do not do that very often. I'll keep my mind open though and check out some of those knives you rated high including the MAC MTH-80.
What most people want to do is complain. They didn't bother to take the time and spend the money to conduct this exhaustive test.
That said, however, the best advice one can give for knife selection is: choose one that feels best in your hand. It is 100% subjective. It does you no benefit to buy a top rated knife that causes blisters.
All knives will get the job done. Over time how you treat the knife is up to you.
If you are testing knives for engineers, you should add the Furi brand to you tests: http://furitechnics.com.au/
The company is run by engineers and the knives are designed by engineers, they consistently rate highly in reviews, I have two and they are the most comfortable and best performing knives I have ever used.
I enjoyed your article, and was amused that the Global came out on top, because that is the brand I am a fan of. It is DEFINITELY an individual thing to choose a knife, because as a left-handed woman, I find some knives waaaay too heavy, or difficult to grip (Shun's handle is made for right-handed people).
As an aside for the Anonymous Reader who bought a diamond steel, go easy on that blade. Diamond steels do more than just realign the blade. They will sharpen/take away matter when you rub the blade against them. Some knives can't be sharpened by a regular steel, so I'm not saying they steered you wrong, it's just a little trickier with a diamond/ceramic steel to accomplish what you need. And you will only ruin any blade if you don't know how to hold it at a proper angle to sharpen/hone it. So get some education, because it definitely is a worthwhile skill to acquire. Happy sharpening!
I agree with the individuality issue you mention. I recently picked up a left-handed Shun and love it. ;)
Interesting article.
I've found that food service knives are the best balance between cost and function- the steel is decent and you can get a chef's knife for $40. I've used my Dexter-Russell set for ~5 years now- even though periodically someone has thrown them in the dishwasher or left them in a pan of water overnight. They're a bit hard to find- I go to a resturant supply store.
http://www.dexter-russell.com/Search_details.asp?id=639&group_name=sofgrip.asp
R/
Sharpening knives is an art that can be learned, just as cooking can be learned.
Go to
Razor Edge for tools and techniques to learn how to sharpen your knives yourself the correct and safe way.
The guys on here can make an ax sharp enough to shave with. You can make your knives sharp enough to be safe and efficient.
I have used many chefs knives over the years and like the Chef's Choice 6" chefs knife the best. It is very heavy, and takes and keeps an edge very nicely when sharpened with the Chef's Choice sharpener. Just my 2 cents...
Regarding sharpening--I have the sharpening system that is a MUST for all engineers: its from Razor Edge, Box 150, Ely Minnesota, 55731. The originator (presumed owner) barn-stormed with an act of shaving with a double-bitted ax after sharpening with this system. In its simplest form, a hardened jig is clamped (with SET SCREWS!) to the back of the blade at very prescribed locations--this requires a good deal of patience and an engineer's scale (measuring down to 1/64th of an inch) to get right. The clamped jig and blade ride on the stones of your choice--mine are Japanese water in progressing grits from 120 to 8,000. The process is time-consuming, and painstaking--it can take a full football half to sharpen a single knife. I have worked for over three hours on my prize 8" Henckels Zwilling (twins)--reminds me of a commercial--to restore the edge. However, once restored it will last for a year with minor, infrequent steelings. Note Henchels welds a softer metal bolster (hosel) (spelling) to the main blade, so you often get a divot at the back of the blade--this could require serious grinder work to get the blade to hit the sharpening stone correctly. All for now! RAB
:(
Why doesn't anyone here say it as it is? These knives are too bloody expensive!!! How many people would buy a knife that's more than $100?
or even $60? I think $50 is a good limit.
Isn't that why Michael recommended the Forschner as the best value for performance at $29?
lol
all the crazy knifenuts here: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/ where $100 for a good knife is considered a bargain and $50 is a steal...
A beautiful knife with a "super steel" core doesn't come cheap...
"SANETU" Cowry X Santoku 165mm http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SPECIALS.html
"Cowry X is the tough powdered metal alloy specially developed by Daido Steel Company for high performance cutting tools. It contains high carbon (3%) and high Chromium (20%) with 1% Molybdenum and 0.3% Vanadium, and can be heat treated to HRC63 to 67 without brittleness." - JCK
If you think the western style chef's knives reviewed on this site are expensive you probably won't believe these prices:
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KDSeries.html
Traditional honyaki knives are even worse... :shock:
Have any of you ever used a Spyderco kitchen knife? I've had a really good experience with their folders, and I was wondering if that expertise carried into the kitchen.
Thanks for the great review! Methodical, complete, transparent. As a software engineer who spends as much time in the home kitchen as at the office keyboard, I appreciate this kind of thing...
However, my only beef (har har) is that only the tests did not include meat, poultry, and fish. In my view, cutting those materials is every bit as important as carrots, scallions, tomatoes, and potatoes. It would have been nice to create a battery of tests whose respective purposes were indexed according to what attributes of the knife are being tested.
Nevertheless, very nicely done!
Peace & Happy Cooking,
Kai
I'm too cheap to be cutting meats... plus I'd have to test the meats in fresh and frozen states...
As someone who just received a MAC TH-80 for Christmas and is considering trading up to an MTH-80, this test and its subsequent discourse were a gas to read. A few thoughts...
Re sharpening. I buy lots of knives, and I've yet to see a company advertise that they ship dull for safety. Therefore, I say let the products as shipped speak for themselves, for three reasons:
1. Consumers shouldn't have to guess if they're getting a product that's ready to use or not. The product should be ready to use, even if that warrants warning stickers.
2. Depending on what "professional" sharpens them and how, you introduce variables of blade geometry and temper tampering into the tests, with what were virgin tools.
3. Sharpening is personal for the consumer, too. A geek like me who knows how to sharpen does it religiously and well. A person who wants a knife to function when they use it, and otherwise stay out of the way, needs to know which knives will bear up under rough treatment. My knives rock, but their factory edges are distant memories, and I consider the sharpening I've done to them over the years to be customization.
As for knives being too expensive, I always point my non-knifehead friends to the Forschner. A real giant killer, that. But for an enthusiast, "too expensive" is like telling a cowboy his Stetson or Resistol is too expensive. How much is too much to pay for a tool that might outlive you, and serve you superbly in the meantime? For something you only have to buy once, in a disposable world?
Subjective handle comfort comments would be great. It's personal, but it can give you an idea of what knife will fatigue large or small hands in particular.
In any case, nice test, and thanks for including knife weights. I've made my trade-up decision. :)
mike ... thank you so much for your willingness to go thru the trouble to test some rather interesting knives.
i own most of the knives tested, and will concur with most of your conclusions. what i find interesting is that the global, the macs, the forschner and the shun are all stamped blades! so much for all the
"experts" and their "expert opinions" that the best knives have to be forged.
modern stamping techniques can produce some very nice knives!
(OK, the cutco is also stamped, but how they command the price they
demand for that junky blade is beyond my imagination.) what others may not know is that the stamped knives tend to be very straight blades. i hang around one of the bay area's biggest knife shops (the perfect edge cutlery in san mateo) and i have examined hundreds of knives (they are very nice to me as i have bought lots of knives from them) and the stamped knives are very very straight compared to the forged knives. the forged knives often have something "unstraight" about them ... they are curved, dog legged, bent, twisted, and even wavy edged ... problems if you need to make long straight cuts, not a problem if all you do is chop and mince, but something to be aware of nonetheless.
in fact, many of my friends, who have bragged about their knives, were surprised when i mentioned many knives being unstraight. sure enough, they sighted down their forged knives and found me to be correct. i would then show them my knives and they are very noticeably straight.
it is very difficult to make long straight cuts with a crooked blade.
the other thing i will conjecture is that even if all the knives were to be sharpened by the same knife sharpener, the thinner the blade, the sharper the knife. (this is why straight edged razors, which are reeeally razor sharp, are always very thin bladed. i cannot understand, knowing physics, how a thick blade can ever approach the sharpness of a thin blade.) so even if the test were to be remade with all the knives sharpened, the results would probably be the same. german blade fans tend to be very loyal to their knives, but i have shown many of them my japanese blades and many have admitted that they have never actually USED a japanese blade and were surprised how much sharper they were compared to the german blades, even after bragging how their knives were "hair splitting sharp". misono, kikuichi, suisin, hirotomo, masamoto, and masahiro all make western styled chef knives that would easily rival and exceed the sharpness of german steel, and at an under $100 price.
actually, my latest buy, a $20 tarhong #1 carbon steel ping knife (chinese veggie cleaver) is proving to be a VERY sharp, VERY easy to handle cook's knife. after cleaning up the edge with just a few swipes of a 2000 grit waterstone, i was able to chop ten pounds of onions without shedding a single tear!! forget those "tips" about how to cut an onion without crying (partially freeze it, slice it under water, breathe thru your mouth and not your nose, breathe thru you nose and not your mouth, etc.) ... if your knife is truly sharp, you can cut/slice/chop an onion and you will not cry.
sorry for the long post, but ... just my thoughts.
If you ever decide to do a knife comparison review again, can you compare some Rada knives with the selection? My girlfriend and I have been buying them as gifts as they are decent quality and exceptionally well priced, but I've often wondered how they <i>really</i> stack up against suitable competition.
Based largely on the recommendations here, I bought a MAC MTH-80 for a friend for Christmas. 2 weeks of regular use, and the tip is bent and a chunk broke out of the blade when cutting through hard cheese. She loved the way the knife cuts, but is hugely disappointed in how quickly the blade is broke down.
Anyone have similar experiences?
MAC Knives has excellent customer service. Please ask your friend to contact MAC Knife, Inc. at (888) 622-5643 to talk directly to them.
My guess is that your friend may have twisted the blade once it was wedged into the cheese. Quality knives should be treated with care - they are finely constructed instruments. I don't recommend that knives be washed in the dishwasher (can bang around and get nicked or lose their tips), be thrown into a sink, or allowed to impact any surface besides vegetables, meat (avoid bones except with a cleaver or thick bladed chef's), and wood or plastic cutting boards. I've seen so many people using a granite board or rapping their knives on jars or bowls and then wondering why their edge is dull or chipped...
I have to say that this review was practically worthless.
What are knives used for? To cut things. If they aren't sharp, they aren't going to cut well. Ergonomics and things such as that are all secondary to the quality of the cutting edge.
All of the knives in this review need to be sharpened and THEN retested. It's the only way to get accurate data. Manufacturers rarely ship new knives sharp. Even if they do, the amount of sharpness varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer.
I've got a $10 Farberware Pro 8" chef's knife that I sharpened so sharp I could shave with it. It has been an absolute joy to use.
It's the edge that's important. Without it, it's just a butter knife.
One thing to note about kives is that industry has made great changes in the available materials and processes over the past decade or two--even mid-range knives of today will be comparable to high end knives of twenty years ago.
A note about edges. The angle of the grind used to make more of a difference (before the ultra tough high temper stainless) in how long the edge will last. If you slice with the kife (rather than chop--which by the way is the trick for using a katana or other sword) the brittleness of the steel is not a problem.
Note that only a few years ago, no serious kife person would have recommended any stainless knife on the grounds that it wouldn't hold an edge. This is related to the stamped/forged argument too, the real reason that stamped knives used to be inferior (and they were!) was that the manufacturers didn't use the best steels in the stamped knives--they reserved them for their 'top line' forged knives.
Dull knives are dangerous learn proper maintenance for your particular blades.
Knives, being an extension of your hand (I tell my cats that my knives are my claws,) are extremely personal. Find one you are comfortable with, and which you feel in control with. Cutting off bits of yourself is not fun.
If you have no training in using a knife, I recomend that you study the subject & if possible have someone who knows walk you through the various uses. Best not to develop bad habits as they may be dangerous and will probably be less efficient (more tiring.) In general, the weight of the knife should do most of the work. If you have to put a lot of pressure on a knife to make a cut, then there is something wrong.
In the old days, when demonstrators were showing kives (in stores & at fairs and such) they used to put very fine edges on their knives. This makes the tomato test and the paper test very impressive--at the cost of having to rework the edge often.
My 2 cents.
My CUTCO (full) set was purchased in 1966 and I STILL USE IT. Of course, after 4 children and 40 years, it's not all there, but it's still the ONLY KNIVES I WILL EVER USE.
As another here has already mentioned, The Chef's knife is the ONE AND ONLY Cutco knife I don't use, because once you use the Double D blade you never go back. It's funny that it's the one you chose to demonstrate with.
My steak knives were as sharp today as they were years ago, HONEST! until my son tossed my last one. So I just replaced all of the steak knives and look forward to using them for the rest of my life.
I still have the rest of the collection, and use them EVERY DAY.
The Double D is the ONLY way to go, too bad it's NOT ON THE CHEF'S KNIFE. You need to reconsider what you are using. A chef would not use this Cutco knife on a tomato or potato anyway.
I agree that the MAC is the best knife. I have all of the pro sharpening paraphernalia, and use the one the MAC representative recommended: http://www.macknife.com/sharpeners.html
-ddog
I own a full set of Cutco knives, we well as various other chef's knives. I don't understand how the Cutco French Chef managed to perform as poorly as it did in this review. The only thing I can come up with is that cutco decided to dumb down their factory sharpening, perhaps for safety reasons in transportation, and to bring shipping costs down. My French Chef's knife performed amazingly right out of the package. I have performed all of the tests mentioned in this review with the knife and my results were completely different. I fully agree with what others have said in these comments: this review needs to be replaced with one that uses a uniform method of sharpening each individual knife before the testing begins. A freshly sharpened edge vs. whatever the guys at the factory decided to do is indeed, night and day.
Wow interesting, I’m a mechanical engineering student and find this review rather interesting. I myself own a set of wusthof knifes and a few henckels four star . I also have a top end Kyocera ceramic knife too (cost me nearly $350 when I got it). I was surprised the wusthof knifes didn’t perform better. I would have to say would the test not have being better holding the knife stationary and pushing the food onto the knife with a know and calibrated force be more accurate and fairer way of doing this test? As I would say the wusthof knifes have to be at least a third lighter than the henckels ones. My wusthof knife have always served me very well I am continually amazed by there build quality and ability to take an edge. Everything I have tried to cut with them they have preformed perfectly. I find the henckels ones a little too heavy to use comfortably. There thicker blade I feel does not separate food well, I mean don’t get me wrong they are still better than 90% of all other knifes I have used, but not quite the performance of wusthof. The ceramic knife I have if feather light and the edge is what can only be described as amazing. I do however feel its more of a conversation piece than a serious tool as its just not big enough to cut down large joints or vegetables. And the fact I have to send it to Swaziland to get it re-sharpened kind of annoys me. In my experience a lot of the Japanese stainless steel knifes are just too hard (Rockwell 60 ish, compared to 56 area for European) to be able to practically get good sharpening results at home from. In a factory environment the harder steel can take a really homed edge but its much harder to get at home. Also the fact that Japanese knifes tend to be ground to a finer point which means that they probably will cut better out of the box, but good luck getting that 17.5 degree angle back on them again any time soon! I have never used an American knife of similar quality but I will certainly be looking out too being some back to the UK the next time in I’m the states as I have heard good things.
Well good cooking and good engineering…
Great article, why did it take me so long to stumble across it?
As a chef I've used most of those knives and I think you're spot-on except for one minor detail: most knives are not shipped fully sharpened. To keep things equal you should have run each knife through a slot sharpener so that each was sharpened to the same angle.
As for Cutco knives, they are excellent for slicing, but not for cutting. Their "double D" edge is a type of serration (as much as they deny it) and only works well when a sawing motion is used. No chef I know uses one. I challenge ANY Cutco user to make fine bruniose (1/16 inch cubes) with their knife. Incidentally, we had an issue on a chef board I frequent where multiple "I love my Cutco" posts were made under different names from the same IP that, when checked, belonged to someone who sold Cutco.
I have a Mercer ($65) that I use for general work (cutting meat, chopping, opening bags) and a Calphalon Katana series($90) that I use for my fine work.
Thanks for a fwell-written review and what must have been a lot of hard work!
A good way to reprise this test might be to enlist the help of a local culinary class.
The main issues / critcisms that I have read seem to be:
1. (Biggest issue for most folks) A sharpened edge vs. a factory edge
2. Ergonomics impressions (will vary with the person)
3. Alternate cutting methods and/or materials
I have Gerber (both the Balance Plus and the older Aluminum handled knives), a low-end Sabatier set, and some of the mid-priced Japanese knives at home. I've also demo'd or borrowed at a friends place to use Henckles, Forscner, Shun, and others at various times. The biggest things to me were 1) Was it Sharp? and 2) Did it feel comfortable in my hand?
If you have a culinary school nearby, maybe you could let them do the work (sharpening and running the various knives through the paces in prep work). Then give them surey forms to fill out to get a more balanced follow-up on the review. Include items like hand size and their own preferred knives to help give a way to balance their responses and you might get some informative input.
I wholeheartedly agree with Rob, especially with regard to the factory edge and ergonomics, mainly of the handle, degree curvature of the cutting blade and presence or absence of a bolster. The idea that the factory edge is what should be examined when using a knife for its daily tasks is incorrect. The factory edge is only available for one use. What's important here is what makes the factory edge the end-all? After that the quality of the edge is completely dependant on the skill of the person sharpening the blade and ability of the blade to be sharpened and actually take a new edge by means available to the knife owner, e.g. a stone for rare occasional use, and steels for daily use, not lathes and a series of 3 to 5 waterstones to make a mirror polish, which may look good, but adds little or nothing to the functionality of a knife. Whenever I purchase a new knife, I sharpen it so the angle is exactly what I like (shallow) and the edge shaves hair. Once all knives being tested are sharpened to the same specifications, you can test to dsee how well they cut, hold an edge, and how comfortable they feel in the hands of MOST people, which means that it may be a sharp knife, but feel rotten in your hands.
This is the first article I read on this site - in fact, it's how I found it.
I have a few different knives, mostly less-than-stellar quality as I'm just coming out of "dirt-poor student" mode. However, one that I like is the Peasant Chef's Knife from Lee Valley Tools. Why? To be honest, there's no scientific reasoning, I just like the feel of it. But then, I'm still very much a n00b when it comes to knives.
Oh, and for those who were thinking Shun knives are for rightys only, you should read Alton Brown's website - he specifically mentiones they make left-handled knives, since he's a lefty too.
it seems as though the bone of contention in this extensive test is the relative sharpness of the factory edge.
first, i seem to notice that all the major (and minor) knife companies brag about how sharp their knives are. if they are indeed shipped "dull", that would be totally counter to their bragging, no? why would a company brag about how sharp you can GET their knives, since a good sharpener can get any knife sharp? just an observation.
secondly, if you COULD do the test all over again, but this time with all the knives sharpened by the same person, i feel the results would not change significantly because the top rated knives all had/have a thin blade profile.
the german knives tend to have a thicker profile, ergo, the 22 degree bevel on both sides of the blade. the japanese blades, with more like a 10-15 degree bevel on both sides, will feel sharper due to less of the "wedging" effect of the thinner blades.
third, there may be some perception of addition sharpness with blades that have a rougher or irregular texture on the blades. with blades that are perfectly flat and polished, foods like potatoes tend to stick to the blades via some sort of suction (even try to slice a potato in half and the potato sticks to the blade so hard that you found it hard to pry the potato off the knife?)
as i have previously mentioned, i own most of the knives used in the test and i found most will pale in comparison to my chan chi kee (CCK) no.2 slicer cleaver. this large (25cm X 12.5cm) blade has a 2cm edge that is
thinner than a business card. This knife i sharpen at a 5 degree bevel ...
maybe less. as i have observed, the thinner the blade and the shallower the angle, the sharper a knife blade.
The functionality of my knives is upgraded significantly by using a sharpening method involving a series of 3 to 5 waterstones and resulting in a mirror polish. "Steels and rare occasional stone use" (assuming one JIS 1000 stone or lower) simply does not produce an edge that I find satisfactory. What are your experiences with knives sharpened progressively to JIS 8000 or higher?
Jagstyle: Do you use all those stones everytime you use a knife? HOW do you think the mirror polish does anything to improve the cutting effectiveness of the knife? It is the EDGE of the blade, where the two faces of the blade come together that does the cutting, not the sides of the blade where you see your reflection. I use a heavy chef's knife for chopping and cutting hard textured foods and finer knives for slicing delicate things like raw fish. I use a few strokes on a steel every time I use a knife, which takes about five seconds. The steel I use most comonly is the the 14" regular cut F Dick and occasionally/rarely use the 14" Sapphire cut F Dick Dorkoron, and there isn't that much difference going to the fineness of the Dorkoron. I like long steels because sharpening my 10 and 12" knives is easier than with short steels. My knives never get dull, and my left arm is bald from testing that the knives shave hair. What more do I need a knife to do? One final thing, if you really like a scalpel-like finish, I suggest using a light coating of tripoli on a leather strop. I have done that, and while it was fun and very cool to do, from a cooking/usefulness standpoint, it was a waste of time.
no, the lower grits are only needed for re-beveling when the knife still has the rough factory bevel or requires edge defects to be worked out. I only use the leather hone or one of the fine stones before a day's work.
Only a couple mm's which make up the edge bevel (not the sides) gets polished and the edge is certainly affected in the process. It is not the mirror polish that improves the cutting effectiveness. Rather, it is the alignment of the edge that improves with the use of finer and finer abrasives. The mirror polish is simply the visual side effect of using an extremely fine abrasive.
It sounds like you have a good system that fits your needs and I respect that. Personally, if I was to use a steel I would probably start with a "glass smooth" steel and then use a fine ceramic when necessary (http://www.handamerican.com/products.html). I am obsessed with getting my knives as sharp as I can afford and I find that I get the best performance when the edges are taken to the finest abrasive level possible.
Very nice site. I enjoyed to entry about the knives. I will soon be buying new knives and was planning on purchasing Henckels or Wüsthof because I have read so many reviews about them, but now, I'll consider Global also, because of your review.
Get the Wusthof Classic or Henckels Professional S. DO NOT get the Global unless you like the feel of their handles. I find them too small and their roundness and unnatural taper makes them harder to control than Wusthof or Henckels knives.
I purchased a 10" Global Cook's knife and love it. It is very comfortable and extremely sharp. Please exercise extreme care when washing this knife, especially if you have had a glass of wine, margarita or any alcohol. I was cooking on the grill, had a nice margarita, and started washing my knife with a sponge and hot, soapy water. I thought I was being very careful because the reputation of the sharpness of these knives is well documented. The knife sliced right through the sponge and into my finger, leaving a very deep, wicked cut. I probably should have had stitches, but I was able to steri-strip it and wrap it in a bunch of gauze to stop the bleeding. Bottom line, be very, very careful.
First, I love this site and have tried several recipes and liked them. I am not an engineer, but am married to one. Plus I was a math major--does that count?
My question is: how or where can I get a set of six ceramic edged Henckels knives sharpened? I bought them in Germany between about 1995 and 2000. They never did sell these in the US nor are they any longer sold in Germany.
Any suggestions anyone?
Find out who sharpens the Kyocera ceramic knives and see if they will do the Henckels for you.
Yeah, we'll accept you because you were a math major-that's close enough.
Dudes and dudettes, thanks for the article. Great Stuff.
Trained Criminal investagive auditor and insurance auditor. Currently, + for many years, financial, strategic and production planer and venture capital investor. I need absolutely repeatable, consistant, return producing results for larges groups of organizations and individuals.
So when your reviews differed from Consumer Reports, and the chat around the stores ( many hate global for poor performance ) I got excited. What is the truth. Many years of using Henckels, Wustof, Shun, Dexter Cleavers, and recently Katana, with many many knives (own 40 or so, 20+ chef's knives.) Truth is in everything said.
My findings indicate that no knife is great out of the box. As a producer myself, it would just be too damb expensive to assure that. That being said, there is a limit to the sharpness range to a given knife, and more importantly, with each indivual knife of a given manufacturer's model! Example, went thru 11 Henckels Pro S 8" Chef's Knives. Every one was different before and after home sharpening. The sharpest, out cutting MAC, Shun, etc was much sharper than the dullest, which would not go thru an onion. Huge difference. Found this to be the case with all German Knives. Japanese were, as there cars, much more consistant, and generally razor sharp when new.
Have found that though Japanense knives seem to be sharper and cut better than most German knives ( a good Henckels will beat them though, and hard to get) new, the get dull quickly. Cannot resharpen them to original edge after just a few uses. My Shuns are duller than President Bush's speeches. My Katana, which when used to I love, also dulled almost immediately. Though they, while being obviously dull, still cut better than most. Explain that one please! The one absolute, Henckels definitely sharper than Wustof. Every time. MAC to new to see how edge holds. Global dislike for bad balance, and they are not sharp! Eveone in the store here complains about that and gets mad after listening to reviews of greatness then buying.
I have settled on Henckels as my primary. Went thru many chef's knives to get 8" Four Star & Pro S, with and without dimples that are sharp. The one exception to the comparisons is Santokus from Henckels are sharper than any Japanese knife out of the box and down the road. I asked Henckels about this, and they replied by design the do not make the other knives sharper, though they can do so easily. Lost my notes why, but I am sure they will respond to inquiry.
Good luck to all
I agree that no knife out of the box is as sharp as someone skilled in sharpening can do at home. If I had pick a favorite, I would say the Wusthof Classic is very slightly better than the Henckels Pro-S because it can be sharpened to an ever so slightly sharper edge and it lasts slightly longer during use. I say this without prejudice, because I own about a dozen of each brand in my collection. Needless to say, both are fantastic.
EVERY knife needs to be sharpened with a steel between uses to keep its scalpel/razor like edge. A knife isn't ready to use until it shaves hair. I have OCD and a fetish for sharp knives. :)
QUESTION: I never got into using a Santoku, nor do I own one. I use wide chef's knives of different sizes. What is it about Santokus that is making them so popular? Is it just a new fad? I think I would miss the point on the chef's knife when I needed to pierce something or cut out an imperfect part of the food I was preparing.
I think the Santoku is a fad, but I do know that its weight makes it easier to use for someone who holds the knife incorrectly. They also tend to be shorter and thus less intimidating for new users; you never see a 10 inch santoku.
Since you're a sharpness junkie, try this excercize my knifeskills instructor gave us: wrap your cutting board in plastic wrap and slice green onions (making sure to get all the way through) without cutting the plastic. Scoring the plastic is OK, but it should hold water when you're done.
I have owned many of the knives tested.
I started using my parents Chicago Cutlery. A decent starter knife but far from very useful.
I then bought myself some Wusthof Classic chef knives. It was worlds apart. I loved using it. It was sharp. I was able to keep it sharp by sharpening as needed.
I then saw Global. I loved the look and ordered some. I loved the weight and sharpness of them. I have small hands so they fit great. I am able to do great things with them. I have 6 Global knives (3" paring, 6" serrated, 5.5" vegetable, 8" chef, 9" bread and 13" flexible carving). I love how they keep the edge and are able to stay razor sharp. I do have a Global sharpening kit.
While at a knife skills class recently, I was able to use a Kyocera ceramic knife. It was much sharper than mine. It felt great to cut with. It was lighter than my Globals which are much lighter than the Wusthofs. I loved how it cut. No bruising or crushing. It was great. Now I just have to arrange to get one.
I am not familiar with this. Is the purpose so you learn to use only the force needed to cut through the food and not strain your hands? What difference does it make if you cut through the plastic in this excercise? I admit I'd probably cut through-my cutting board has cut lines on it, that over the years have become a mosaic from chopping food. Please elaborate.
I am an industry chef and the last new knife I purchased was a Kai (Japan) Shun Santoku. I find it is just the most perfect knife and I use it for 90% of the kitchen work I do. The shape is not a fad. It cuts, slices and chops, turn the blade over and the rounded edge is great for buttering bread! It still has a point and a sharp one at that, which is fine for cutting out bad bits and piercing. Tonight I spatchcocked a chicken (cut the backbone out), sliced potatoes, chopped onions and garlic, and then jointed the chicken when it was cooked. I get my knife professionally sharpened once a year, and I steel it about once a week. Every 4 months it might need a touch up on a waterstone. It is usually shaving sharp. VG10 10 is a great steel and the damascus pattern and gold lettering, make the Kai/Kershaw Shun stand out.
I am a cutco manager, and I was interested in comparing other knives, I thought the article was wonderful, but I was curious if you have tested any other knives such as a serrated against a cutco DD edge?C
It's about an experienced chef showing off *wink*
Seriously, the point is control and sharpness. If your knife is truly sharp you don't need much pressure, so the excercise is to learn how to use just enough and no more.
No, I have not had the opportunity to sit down and test a double-D against a "standard" serrated knife. In truth, I use serrated blade infrequently - mainly as a bread knife or if I'm someone else's home and don't have my knives with me...
Why did you only tested the knives on vegetables?
I think you should have tested them on meat and fish too!
I wish I would have found your website before I bought my knives. I bought a set of Henkels; I think I picked up the wrong box. I was trying to avoid the "always sharp" serrated edge type. But, I kept them anyway but went back to get a real knife. I did get another Henkels, much better. But I did notice still some tearing with tomatoes and sashimi. Your site is great. Please keep it going.
I don't understand fixating on the quality of the factory edge becaues that edge is lost after the first few times the knife is used. Most reasonable knives can be sharpened to a razor's edge, (if you think that is what you want, and I don't always agree that it is), if you know how to do it. Better knives hold that edge much longer than their less desirable competition.
Any knife's edge should reflect its intended use. Just as their are many types of teeth on saws, depending on what you intend to cut with them, knife edges should not all be the same.
Most people agree that bread knives are more effective when they are coursely serrated, and a sharp knife with a coursely sharpened blade, (one that leaves thousands of tiny but sharp stridations on it), will cut more tomatoes easily than one with a polished razor edge. Fact is that polished razor edges may be deadly sharp, but they make lousy cooking edges becase they tend to dull much more quickly and be harder to touch up quickly, than their roughter counterparts. Razor edges aren't even desirable for many kitchen jobs because they bite too quickly into things you may not want to cut into, like when you are trimming meat and poltry. Sometimes its nice to be able to follow the contour around obstacles instead of cutting into them.
Its also not fair to compare the cutting pressure of knives with vastly disimilar blade angles and surfaces. A good knife is comfortable to use, requires less effort to use, and stays sharper than a bad one, on the task you use it to do. And for the record I don't push any of my knives through carrots, I chop them very quickly.
I have thourally enjoyed the forum and do have an extensive collection of kitchen knives that were almost all purchased used, and many were old rusty forged carbon steel knives when I bought them for next to nothing. I enjoy restoring them, putting a good edge on them, and using them.
Anamouse@earthlink.net
Nice idea. I wish you'd done a furii because I have one and it seems good, especially for the price. But normal folk don't get the chance to try a whole lot of brands before they buy. If you can stand the thought of doing some more brands it would be quite interesting.
I picked up the Shun Classic Chef's Knife on E-Bay before realizing it was the right-handed version (I'm lefty, and also buy things before I'm sure).
Imagine my shock when I got it and the D-handle fit my left hand perfectly - the flat against my palm, my fingers curving around the right half of the 'D'!
Literally, I picked up the knife and it felt perfect.
Even using a proper knife grip, it felt perfect.
Has anyone else experienced/seen this??
I am considering purchasing either a Shun Alton's 8" chef's knife, or a Chef's Choice Trizor 8". The Shun has a Rockwell rating of 61, and the Trizor says 60, and both are around the same price ($130-$140). I want a really good knife that will last a long time, but don't want to spend more than what either of these are. After looking around, the Shuns were the only ones I could find that were this hard (>60) until I found the Chef's Choice.
Does anyone have any personal experience with either of these knives, or any recommendations?
Does anyone have any opinions on the Kasumi Santoku knife?
I have recently decided to upgrade my knives. I went into a very reputable store in Manhattan and they showed me Wuhstof Le Cordon Bleu along with MAC, Global, and Shun. I liked the feel of the Shuns and Le Cordon Bleus the best. However, I have not found a single rating or comment on the internet about Wuhstof Le Cordon Bleu knives.
Is anyone familiar, other than what the Wuhstof pamphlet says, with the Le Cordon Bleu line of knives? I would really appreciate some help.
Thank you.
The Wusthof Cordon Bleu have the same steel as the other Wusthof knives except that those blades to not have a bolster.
Interesting article... and a complete contrast to my mom's long lived love of Henkles (sp) knives. I'm actually horrified at how poorly they did.
I've been thinking about getting my own knife (I only ever use one and I use it for everything) for a while now. This has given me much to consider.
Now I just have to find sources of the knives in Canada... Google here I come.
I love your site, and the way you have the recipes is exactly how I think...
Once again, awesome, and keep up the site!
Amanda
I was doing a CUTCO search on their rockwell hardness rating and pull in this site and your message. There is a ton of Cutco of all generations being sold on eBay and just worh checking out. For out of production Cutco, there is plenty for sale by many sellers and a good buyers guide on dating your Cutco. Paul
I appreciate the effort and expense the reviewer obviously made to review so many knives.
I have recently been doing some research into knives, originally with the intention of determining what is the "best" knife in the world. What I have found out is that there is no such thing. As so many have said before me, the qualities that make a knife "the best" are variable and very subjective.
For instance, different types of steel have different characteristics. Some are very difficult to sharpen, but hold an edge for a long time and do not rust. Some must be handled with care to prevent rusting, but are super easy to re-sharpen to a razor's edge. Some knives a lightwieght, but are not constructed as durably as heavier knives. Some people may want a cheap knife that won't need sharpening for five years, at which time they will throw it away and buy another, and some people want to pass their beloved forged knife on to their grandchildren... It all depends.
What struck me most about the review was the sincerity of the reviewer, as well as the naivity of his tests. It proved the adage well: sometimes we are ignorant not only of the answers, but of what questions to ask. Being an engineer does not automatically grant expertise in the very complex subject of knife design. For expertise I would look for reviews written by someone who has devoted himself to the complex subject more deeply than our reviewer.
Still, keep up the good work. It's cool to find such a big forum for other knife geeks.
I have had a few knives (Henkles and Wustoff). My stepmother is from Japan and used to be a cooking instructor (now retired). I asked her about knives and her opinion. I was surprised it wasn't Japan is the best and Germans stink attitude.
She has Mac, Hattori, and Wustoff that she uses regularly.
Her comments are these:
European knives are solid and heavy built knives. They are made very well and will last a lifetime. About the knife, they are thicker and the blade edge is usually sharpened to 20-25 degrees.
She mentioned this is fine for standard western cooking. It chops, cuts, and slices well. They are well made.
However, the knife is made for a different purpose - as the Western Foods are prepared different than Japanese food.
Most of her Japanese knives are sharpened only on one side, thinner than the German knives, lighter weight, and hard steel.
Many dishes she prepares require very thin slices, which she could never do with her Wustoff.
She sharpens her own knives and said that she can sharpen them all equally sharp, but the hard Japanese steel knives can take a sharper 10-15 degree edge - because of the harder steel - which can not be done on the softer German knives.
We spoke a long time about it and I tried all her knives.
She stopped me and said. These are her knives and work for her, but may not be right for me. Because she loves them and has become familiar with them, does not mean they are the best - only the best for her.
Her basic rules.
1. Your cooking style. If you are preparing normal western type dishes - then any German type of blade edge will do, but if you plan on preparing some specialty dishes (Japanese in her case) then you may need a one-sided 10-15 degree blade for paper-thin cuts.
2. Your Hands. She mentions the blade becomes and extension of the cook's body. Everyone’s hands are different sizes and finding the right handles/grip is as important as the blade. It is about balance - almost Zen like.
3. The need of your knife. She recommends NOT to purchase a knife block and set (even if they are your favorites - because each knife is different), but instead find 3 knives that meet your needs (they could be from 3 different manufactures).
a. A pairing knife
b. A cutting and slicing knife (chief's knife 7"-10")
c. A chopping knife (cleaver or you could use a heavy santoku).
(side note: she does not own a santoku)
In the future you can get other types of knives (boning, cleaver, etc, but these three will be your go to knives.
4. The quality. Once you find the types of knives you need - the quality needs to be evaluated.
She mentioned the German knives are softer steel. She believes that they are easier to sharpen, but won't hold the edge as long. Since the angle is 20-30% - the softer steel is fine - since the blade edge will be thicker. Her Wustoff is one of the knives she uses often (8" Chef Knife) - pretty old.
Japanese knives are harder steel to hold the thinner edge that is required, but this can make the knife more brittle. Most of her knives are Japanese.
She said - forget the brand name - that is not important. TRY TRY TRY every knife you can. You will know the one that is right for you when you try it. It will sit well in the hand (your hand) and the balance will be perfect for your needs. The knife should ALWAYS be sharpened after you purchase it.
She told me in Japan that where she bought her knives, they would sharpen them right in the shop after purchase on Whetstones - so they don't need to be sharpened when you get them home. They don't do that at Macy's! However, almost every knife you purchase in a store in the US needs be sharpened when you get them home.
I tried all kinds of knives.
I am not a professional, but here is my experience.
Globals - did not fit my hand and I didn't like the feel of the handle. It cut very well.
Furi - felt cheap to me. I didn't really like the plastic handle. I didn't try the full metal handle version. They only had Santokus - which seems like a fairly new gimick that everyone is on the band wagon with.
MAC (originals) - I really liked the angle of the handle to the blade. I really liked the pairing knife.
MAC (Pro) - more western style then the originals - like them better than the Global.
Hattori HD - lightweight and handle fit very well in my hand. I really liked the balance.
Shun - Loved these, but they didn't feel right - really wanted to purchase them - but I was not comfortable. I didn't like the round handle, but that is just me. I love the look.
Henkels - after trying all those Japanese knives these were heavy. I liked the heavy weight (made me feel like I was holding something solid). However, I was getting used to the nimbler Japanese knives.
Wustoff - same as the Hinkels but the balance was better. I noticed with the German knives that I tested that the bolsters had rough/sharp edges which can be smoothed with some grinding. I guess I don't always hold my knife properly - because I didn't like the sharp edges.
Viking - didn't like them at all. The handles were very square, thick blades, and overly heavy.
Cursco (sp?) - seemed cheap, hate the handle, and the serated blade (my stepmom said stay away from these type of blades).
I tried a few others, but nothing really stood out.
There were some others that I want to try, but could not find them available to try.
The results.
I bought the Hattori HD Chief's knife, the MAC (original) pairing knife.
I am still looking for a couple of more knives, but this is my starting point. I will keep my old Henkels Set in the block for a while.
My stepmother gave me some whetstones (400,1000,2000). She had me start with my old Hinkels and I got them very sharp (sharper than when I bought them). I was rather surprised how sharp I got them.
I asked if I got the right ones, she smiled and looked at me. She said "How would I know, they are your knives! Only you would know that answer."
I really love my MAC and Hattori, but I have found that I am still using one of my Henkles since I have sharpened it.
The lesson I learned is that it is very individual for each person and sharpening is very important - as well as care.
She did point out that Quality is very important. Both Japanese and German knives have lower-end steel products that sell at Target and Macy's. Just because it has a Japanese or German brand name on it, doesn't mean it is good - it could be made in China with just their brand name on it. - BUYER BEWARE!
Couple of follow-up. She doesn't recommend any serrated type cooking knives (you can't sharpen them). Also - make sure you are getting the premium line in the Henkles, Wustoff (because both of them sell a cheaper version - that is made of low quality steel). You get what you pay for.
Hope my experience helps.
Can't wait to visit Japan with her and have her show me around.
I've worked as both a chef (in Europe and USA) and now work as a mechanical engineer (>10 yrs experience). I'm surprised to see that Messermeister knives were not mentioned in any posts or the original test. I've been using the Messermeister San Moritz Elite for many years now where they put up to strenuous restaurant usage and busy home use. They have been sharpened (with a diamond stone) over a hundred times and are still in pristine condition. My opinion as a former chef and now engineer, they are the best knives on the market. The Globals are a strong second place, if not tied with Messermeister. On the plus side, Messermeister is a little less expensive than Wustof and Henckels.
Just an FYI regarding sharpness. If you want to engineer the edge on your knives, purchase an Edge Pro sharpening system. Visit www.edgeproinc.com for an education (read: dispelling of myths) about the edge of a knife and how you can control it easily and quickly, and with absolute repeatability. Getting an edge to shave your arm hair isn't a particularly good measure of sharpness; try slicing a sticky note leaf on edge and take off small slivers effortlessly. That is sharp, and the Edge Pro system gets you there quickly. Every once in a while, I buy something that brings disproportionate pleasure, just because it is so well engineered! My Stephenson Warmlite tent is an example, and so is my Edge Pro Inc knife sharpening system. I've been using my Edge Pro for about four years now and still get a goofy smile every time I put a perfect sharp on some knife in need. Plus it's a "behind his house" busines and the owner answers the phone and will answer any sharpening question!
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I offer my experience with the sharpness of new knives. I have Henckel Four Stars that were never as sharp as I wanted them from day one. Even using a series of sharpening devices of the 'draw through' type, both manual and electric, the edge was still not what I thought it should be. Finally I recently purchased a dual grit whetstone and after a short session, even with my untrained touch, I was able to produce an edge which approached what I felt it should be.
knives. i've read about them, i can rap about them, but where the heck can i buy one? ya'll talk about taking one for a test drive and seeing what feels best in my hand, but i can't find a cutlery store to save my life. what are some big-name stores that i might be able to find in the mid-west (michigan)? i've looked on-line/in the yellow pages but nothing is listed. i really appreciate all the reviews, opinions, and often-pedantic discussions about everyone's likes/dislikes, and thanks to forums like this, i have a good basis of knowledge of what to start shopping for. now i just need to know where. thanks for all the help.
Very helpful comments from everyone. Thanks.
Looking to buy a top-notch knife, and I can't help but be drawn to the Shun line-- they're just so sexy. Shuns seem to come out in the middle of most reviews of high-end cutlery, BUT I've noticed that everyone is reviewing the Shun classic line. Good knives, but I bet they're not as good as Shun Pro or the new Shun Pro 2.
Has anyone tried the Shun Pro or the Shun Pro 2 line? How do they compare with MAC, Global, or other top-rated brands?
The Shun Pro lines are traditional Japanese single bevel knives. The Deba and Yanagiba shape are specialized for the Japanese style of butchering and preparing fish and don't work as well as the double bevel western knives for other tasks. However, You may like the Nakiri for cutting thin slices of vegetables.
The "Shun Elite" line exclusive to Sur La Table is a different story. Its a higher end version of the western double bevel Shun Classic line. They feature high hardness powdered steel and contoured handles with spacers and mosaic pins. Very pretty but extremely pricey
A Shun Classic or Elite is a Japanese knife with a German profile. Way too much belly in my opinion. I greatly prefer the profile of a true Japanese Gyuto instead of the bastardized western version.
Check out: http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ and visit
Knifeforums
A few notes:
My knives up till now have been Henckels professional 's'. I'm very happy with them. I use a global sharpener once a year to keep them sharp. After hanging out *a lot* in the kitchen, I find it's also nice to have a knife you can treat badly. My favorite was one I found in a rented apartment. And to be fair, I kept it when I left. Just loved it so much.
When I finally looked at it, it turned out to be a raadvad! Which is owned by fiskars now. Lovely rosewood handle. Wood handles are great.
The trick is to buy knives slowly, say one at a time. Each one has it's own personality. The utility knife by Henkels TWIN fin, is a brilliant knife. Reminds me of a porsche. But every once in a while, you wanna go out in a cinquecento....
Does anyone know which is the best of the Wusthof knives? I was given a gift of the Gourmet series, but I'm wondering if I need to trade up for the Classic. Is this worth the money?
Execellent ariticle.
I find that use my chef's knives less and less. (Coindentally, I also rock my knife less and less and find that the chopping motion is more efficient with a very sharp kinfe.) I cook just about everyday and I tend to use my dimpled mighty Mac santoku 90% of the time. It's the best onion cutting knife that I've ever used (theres hardly any resistance) and I tried many knives. It would be great to see a review on santokus.
Interesting review and I appreciate all the hard work done.
My experience is that the chefs I've worked with who had Henckels all used the 4 Star and Ceramic, none used the Pro-S. I assume that the 5 Star and Pro S are marketing gimmicks and aren't really made any better even though they sound like it. I've been told that the quality of Henckels and Wusthof is nearly the same as they have a similar lineage. Henckels is apparently younger and cheaper but the same quality and what most of the chefs I work with use.
I have about half Japanese knives and half Henckels right now and they are great for different things. My only issue is that with heavy use I've had to replace some of the Japanese knives, but than again they are much cheaper to replace.
Great test Michael. I was struck by the fact that your test seemed to come to rather different conclusions than similar ones conducted by Cook's Illustrated. Would be interesting to see how all these knives would have held up in other tests (e.g., breaking down a chicken).
I recently bought the Tojiro DP you tested. It is a nice knife at a great price, though the handle takes some getting used to (a bit too angular). I already had a Global G-2 and Wusthoff classic. And you're right: nothing really cuts like a sharp Global. I was initially unhappy with the Global handle too, but it can grow on you after some use.
My advice to people who don't live near stores where they can test good knives: buy from places on-line that offer full money-back guarantee. Just don't plan on using the knife when it arrives if you plan on sending it back after handling it. Also, lightly used knives make good presents!
if you are looking to buy knives look at what you need them to do. If you are using them for personal I would recommend the forschner. If you are looking for show work then I would go with the globals or my personal favorite kershaw shun. I absolutely do not recommend ceramic cutlery for anything. They break and are a pain to keep a fine edge on.
I've done a lot of homework before investing in a knife brand for my kitchen. After reading many reviews, many knife web pages, and talking to a chef or two, I whittled the categories down to Global and Wustholf.
I researched both, and I found global to be superior. GLOBAL KNIVES ARE NOT STAMPED, THEY ARE DROP FORGED. The difference between stamped and drop forged is that drop forged knives are heated and pounded until the desired shape is attained. A stamped knife is just stamped, ususally once or twice, and then sharpened.
More about Global:
Global knives are hammered, according to their website, 17 times before they are inspected for shape. Furthermore, Global is relatively new to the cutlery game. Before WWII, Global made Samurai Swords for the Japanese Army, but after WWII, there was a "lack of demand" for Samurai Swords, so they turned to kitchen swords(knives as some of you may call them.)
Personally, I kindof like imagineing my Globals striking down ninjas while I make stir-fry, but maby that's just my inner geek talking.
Very interesting article. I am looking for a range of knives right now. narrowed it pretty much to Global, Shun and Wusthof. I like the look of MAC too but cannot find them in the UK (have mailed MAC and Amazon UK to query). There is also a range of knives here called Tojiro Senkou which look OK but seem pricey for what they are.
So far I like the look of the Globals, their lifetime guarantee, price and the slightly (apparently easier sharpening than some Asian knives). I'm not sure I'll get on with the handles though. Wusthof I like but the German brands do seem to be losing some popolarity. Shun appeals too but again I will need to try the handles to see. Hopefully I can get some Global and Shun on apro and give them a go.
I like the selection of knives you examine, but you've completely missed the point. When you buy a good knife, you want a solid knife that will not bend, rust, or get bacteria in the handle. Also you want it to hold sharpness for longer. This test is not possible over a few days without some standard 'dulling' procedure. The sharpness you can achieve on the blades has little to do with the actual knife as much as the sharpener.
I am going to buy a knife, so ...... after some insane searching, I found something:
1. Henckels are stamped knives, made from ribbons and welded fake bolsters.
(from their manufacturing video.)
2. Wusthof are also stamped knives, also made from ribbons and welded fake bolsters.
(from their manufacturing video, too.)
3. Global have Stamped knives (G, GS series) and Forged knives (GF, GSF series).
But they said they just forged the blade, not full tang (handle is welded).
4. Shun also have Stamped knives and Forged knives (Ken Onion series).
P.S.
I don't know whether both Global and Shun are telling the truth or not, or just like Henckels and Wusthof?
Maybe most of famous brands are fake forged knives now ......
Read the knife article and was shocked at results. Concur with all parties that knives out of the box not sharpest. More importantly, they all differ in resulting sharpness due to normal manufacturing variances that cannot be elminated. Only way to minimize the impact of this is to test many samples of a given knife that you want to buy. We do this always.
That being said, there is a reason that most people like Henckels. The are easily the best in our view. I personally own Henckels, Wustoff, Shun, Katana, Global, Victorinox in matching blades ( I like knives ). Have used most of the others.
Clearly, the Henckels are the strongest, easiest to control and fastest in results. They are, and have been in my past 20 years of using them, by far the sharpest of all blades. I like Wustoff too, but cannot use them as am an athelete and several pros and solider friends use my knives to and Wustoff not as strong. They woble and vibrate in comparsion, transmitting shockwaves up the blade and become less stable to us. For non athletes this may not be a problem. But if you are strong and fast, it most surely will be.
Wustoff though are more stable than most of the others. Love the Shuns, though not as sharp as Henckels. But under pressure they wobble much. Global worse. Even thier forged ones wobble big time, though less so then the stampers.
We have snapped the Macs, though not used newer ones. And they are less elegant in balance than Henckels so we gave up.
Good cutting.
The test with tomatoes is not just to cut it in half.
It should be tested by cutting in slices.
For example,
cut the slices for burger, you should cut the tomatoes in half first, separating top and bottom. Then hold the tomatoes with side tip on the board, and then try to cut a 5mm wide slice.
Now, it sounds easy to cut. But if you a nice 3 inches diameter tomatoes with mostly juice in it, then a dull knife will have some difficulties.
1. Dull knifes will slide on the skin of the tomatoes
2. It will crush the tomatoes and push the juice out since there is the huge opening from the "half cut" for juice to leak. and there is no solid part in a juice tomato to stand any pressure.
3. It all depends on the sharpness of the knife since you can't put any pressure. If apply any pressure, then slice will not be perfectly round.
Given the above information, cutting tomatoes can only test the sharpness of the knife. Any "non-dull" knife can do the trick, so it doesn't really tell the quality of the steel.
In fact, I have been using only bread knife for cutting tomatoes by not really cutting, but tear them. I do get nice round slices though.
Read the test and data with interest since I am currently deciding which chef and santoku knife brand to purchase. Under the data for the Henckels Twin Pro-S the thickness is shown to be 8/128 inch, which is in the neighborhood of 1/16 inch. This seems to be incorrect; perhaps the leading '1' was omitted, which if so, would then have the thickness shown as 18/128 inch, or 9/64 inch, and be close to my estimate of apparent thickness of the same Henckels chef knife at a local store.
Verification of this anomoly was important to me as I plan to purchase perhaps this chef's knife in the near future.
Secondly, since I cannot make a Rockwell C test of this knife [the clerks get kinda wierd when I punch small dimples in their knives :lol: ] would anyone have data on Rc hardness of the forged Henckel and Wusthof chef knives. Have read of difficulties in sharpening these German steel knives and am wondering why?
Thanks for your interest and time for any replies.
I'm wondering why also. I have had Henckels and Wusthofs for 25-30 years and they are easy to sharpen with a steel to the point that they shave hair.
OK, glad to hear another plus for sharpening the Henckels and Wusthofs; had doubted the other comments....maybe stated by those who used only carbon steel :D .
But.....which is it....8/128ths inch ...OR....9/64ths inch on the Henckels.
I found my original notes from when I took the measurements and I wrote down 1/8 (8/128). I remember vaguely that I was surprised and measured again to make sure and then moved on with the measurements. But apparently wrote down some conflicting values. Henckels has since taken back their Pro-S knife... so I'll have to sweet talk someone from Sur La Table or BBB to let me go at a couple samples with my calipers...
I just measured a few of my knives: My wide (blade WIDTH, NOT thickness) chefs 6" Henckels Pro-S and it is just barely 10/64.
The Wusthof wide 8" chefs is 10/64, but their wide 10" and the standard width chefs 12" is a bit more than 21/128.
#1 Note: I'm using a etched stainless steel ruler with 1/64" gradations, reading it with magnifying loupes, not a caliper. The caliper in my office is metric, anyway.
#2 Note: The wide bladed chefs are about 1/4" wider (blade height) than regular chefs, so maybe they are also a hair thicker than regular chefs.
Picked up the 8 inch Pro-S chefs knife previously discussed; the thickness in question on this knife, as measured with dial calipers, is .150 inches, which makes for a sturdy piece of steel. Was about to get the 10 inch but noticed it was significantly thinner and the blade was not in alignment with the handle :shock:. While doing this shopping, I noticed a v-e-r-y nice set of six Japanese damascus steel knives, from a paring size up to a 10-inch chef; they all looked, as my wife also comments, like razor blades with handles. Trying to justify the need for a few of those jewels :lol: .
i have a henckels twin cuisine 8 in chefs and love it
to those who were shocked by the price of a good knife
these knives are of the highest quality i have an 80 year old knife made by f. dick that was my grandfathers
in essence these knives will outlive you and are worth every penny if you take good care of them
Anyone here know where one can pick up a MAC knife in the UK?
Cheers.
Interesting review, but I'd like to point out that the MAC knife of your choice is a santoku knife, not a chef's knife. Santoku knives are getting more popular as it is designed to do slicing and dicing much better than regular chef's knife. I'm not surprised that it has performed much better.
The MTH-80 is a Chef's Knife. MAC does make a comparable santoku which I have used before (but did not like as much as the MTH-80 even with all teh hype surrounding santokus right now) which is their
MSK-65.
I have an old 60's K Bar type knife issued by the USMC. It's marked ""Camillus, NY."" on the blade base. You can imagine the use and abuse it's received during it's first four years. I use it infrequently now, but over the years I've used it for everything from butchering game to carving beef roasts, slicing bacon, and cutting up veggies. I haven't sharpened it since the 70's, and I can still shave hair off my arm with it. I'd sure like to know what type of steel it's made from. I wonder if this company makes chef's knives?
As somebody who regularly shaves with straight razors, I assure you that you'd never want to shave with an ax or a kitchen knife, no matter how sharp. Aside from the type of grind, there are other factors that will make the experience highly unpleasant.
How many other manufactors guarantee there knives forever? Cutco will replace, sharpen and polish there products FOREVER. This test fails to point out that there are certain knives for certain jobs. You wouldnt use a steak knive to filet a fish, why would you use a chef knife to cut a tomato? You must feel Cutco's Double D edge slice through meats, tomatos and bread yourself to make any kind of comparison. I have owned and tried Wusthof, Global and Henckels knives. In my experience Cutco outperforms, outlasts, and most importantly has the best ("FOREVER") warranty then any other knife company.
I hand make Carbon steel Kitchen knives . I have had this web site at www.wildfirecutlery.com and know that I make some fine kitchen knives . Any questions after reading my site , let me know . This is a great site , one that seems down to earth and straight forward . Michael Lishinsky
I'm looking for a good bread knife. I broke my favorite of 35 years, and it's no longer in production. I know this is sacrilege, but since it's only one knife price is not a consideration. Any suggestions?
I have been in touch with a very nice guy called Harold Arimoto at MAC in the States and he recommends the following companies:
Hansen's Kitchen Equip
306 Fulham Rd
London
020-7351-6933
Continental Chef Supplies
7-8 Burdon Dr
North West Industrial Estate
Peterlee, County Durham England
0191-518-8073
Tim
Stumbled into this article last night & it's been fun reading through the whole thing. I'm shopping for my own set of knives. So far, i've prepared food with my sister's henckles & my brother's wusthof. I did buy some cheap Kitchen Aids for my parents (mostly for me when I cook there) because they only have serrated ones & I just hate using those. My other brother just bought some Chroma Type 301 knives (literally just got them today). We're testing it out tomorrow, but I don't know if anybody has any experience with them. The handles looked weird at first, but it actually felt really comfortable when I held them.
My question is that if anybody has used them before, how do they compare to the Globals & MAC's (2 brands i'm considering). I haven't found a place near me that would let me test these brands. Thanks in advance!
Ming Tsai has started using a knife on his "Simply Ming" show that looks like something I'd really like to try. I did some research, and discovered that it is called a KenTai 4-in-1 knife, and can be ordered over the internet at < http://www.kentaiknife.com >. Yeah, I know, it's a $20 stainless steel knife, but man, I think the design and shape might be just what I want in a knife (a wide/tall blade that is more curved than a santoku (typically not curved enough for me)... the "soft" point might take some getting used to, but would probably be fine).
Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about this knife, particularly whether it will stay sharp and hold a good edge, and also whether it is strong/stiff or flimsy. I could just shell out $20 to find out, but thought I'd check here first. Thanks in advance!!
Very interesting article with a lot of interesting feedback.
I am glad that Mike stated his assumptions up front: "All of the knives were tested out-of-the-box because I made the assumption that most readers will not be hand sharpening their knives."
If it were not for that statement, I would have disregarded the test results as pap since they differ so much from my personal experience. I would never judge a knife by its cutting ability "right out of the box". I am a lifer (over-50) knife junkie who has ALWAYS sharpened all my own knives and those of many friends, too. 25 years ago I got my first set of Razor Edge sharpening guides and the coarse/fine stone set. Unless you sharpen and maintain your knives, you can never really know how good or bad they are. And ultimately "how good they are" depends on what you want to do with them. Nearly everyone who has ever handed me a dull, nicked, edge-abused blade has gotten back a tool that was ready to go to work and cut/slice stuff like they had never cut/sliced before. Sharpening isn't hard - you just have to appreciate the most important principles - keep a constant edge angle (that's where the sharpening guides are critical), progress from the coarsest stone necessary to get the bevel right with the minimum amount of work, then work to the finest stone needed to get the edge that works for you. It's really simple - just requires a little patience and practice, and not a very big investment in the hardware part (guides and stones). The rewards of effortless meat, fish or vegetable slicing, dicing, chopping, carving, filleting, etc more than offset the little bit of effort to get and maintain a really good edge.
For the record, with all my good to great BIG NAME cutlery, I think Cutco makes a really good product. Cutlery snobs may sneer at me and Cutco, but we should judge a product by its performance. Of course I bought it for all the wrong reasons (son of a friend working his way through college), but have been remarkably surprised by the quality and results I can get. Sure, you overpay when you buy Cutco, but the double-D edge is fantastic for some jobs, like making really thin slices of cooked or even raw meat. I learned the hard way how sharp this edge is the first time I was careless and got too close to the meat of my fingertip - live and learn. And I really love my conventionally edged Cutco Santoku - I keep it sharp as a razor, and its cuts effortlessly.
Bottom line - 95% of the kitchen knives most people own are inherently more capable than their owners can appreciate if they are not kept sharp. Even a "modestly" good knife, whether judged by objective test methods, online reviews, or hard practical use, can do what 95% of the users out there (including me) need it to do. When a properly sharpened knife of whatever brand starts to hold you back from efficiently doing what you need the knife to do, only then is it time to start looking for that 2% performance increase that will probably cost you $50 or $100 to get. If you have the dough and need to spend it on a vanity, go ahead - but you really ought to invest the time and a few bucks to learn how to produce a good edge in the first place, then maintain the edge.
This is an excellent review. I agree with some of the comments regarding the limitations of testing the factory edges. I understand that for practical reasons you had to do this. And for a test targeted at a typical home cook, this decision especially makes sense.
When you get into the higher end knives, the market includes more experienced cooks and knife users, who increasingly do their own sharpening and maintenance. For this group, a diferent set of criteria makes sense.
High end knife customers are not interested in out-of-the-box sharpness, but in edge geometry and in most of the following characteristics of the steel:
-Ability to take a very fine edge
-Ability to retain that edge for a long time (especially helpful to professional cooks, who with the best knives can beat on them 8 hours a day for a weak at a time without intermittent maintenance)
-Ease of sharpening. There is a big difference here. Many of the harder knife steels, especially stainless ones, can be a bitch to sharpen. Some are quite easy.
-Toughness. The drawback of some of the thin, hard blades is that they're fragile. Someone in an earlier comment advocated hacking through bone with a Global. This is a good way to completely trash the knife! A stouter, softer-steel European knife, or a specialized heavy duty Japanese one (Deba) is best for the rough stuff.
Finally, I disagree with the commenter who suggested ergonomics are unimportant. If you use a knife a lot, the way it feels in your hand might be at least as important as the edge quality.
It would be nice to see a followup test of some of these knives, based on long-term use, abuse, and sharpening. Such a test would of course be much more subjective, but I suspect it would reveal why knives like the Nenox cost what they do. It might also show that there's a place for the heavy German knives, even if they're not up to the sharpness standards of the Japanese. It would also be interesting to throw one or two carbon steel knives into the mix. There's a reason they have a devout following.
First off I agree with what every other CUTCO user has said. Use the knives for the task they were made for. And CUTCO has what is called the DD edge. Not a serated edge. Which means instead of just what looks like peaks it goes up down then a little valley up down valley. All of which are sharp and provide 3 cutting edges. The points protect these three edges from dulling. As for sharpening like stated before the company guarantees their knives for life. They will sharpen and polish for only shipping costs. Or will send a rep out to sharpen them in your home. As for the handle that is just personal opinion. It was designed to fit any hand and to be safer.
What Cutco defenders seem to have in common is a complete lack of experience with real high end knives. Which explains their befuddlement at the beating Cutco gets from the people like me. It's sad, because the things cost as much as very good knives. In fact there are knives that cost half as much (like some of the Macs and Tojiros in this test) that will spank the Cutcos in every imaginable way.
And by the way, that "double d" edge is by every conventional definition a serrated edge. If an edge has teeth, ridges, grooves, or waves ... any irregularity big enough to see without a magnifying glass ... it's serrated. Some serrated edges work better than others (wavy edged knives like the Mac bread knife work great on crusty bread), but none is suitable for chopping, mincing, dicing, or any of the things that chef's knife gets used for most often. There are generally good at two things: bread crust, and keeping a dull edge semi-functional.
The good news about cutco is that you can get pretty good money for it on ebay. Why not unload it and get a real knife?
I have been very amused reading some of the comments here. I guess we have the traditional Japanese knife makers crying over in Japan with the idiotic comments made here. Shun knifes are HAMMERED?? LOL!
About Shun by Kershaw:
Forged in the samurai sword-making center of Seki City, Japan, Shun features centuries-old craftsmanship updated for the modern Western kitchen.
I think you need to research a little better before you go about and post insane comments that are based upon pure speculation and lack of knowledge. Never ever disrespect the traditions nor values of the Japanese knife makers by posting such insane and profound comments. The only thing HAMMERED here is your head!
Correction on the above post, HAMMERED when I meant STAMPED.
I have been very amused reading some of the comments here. I guess we have the traditional Japanese knife makers crying over in Japan with the idiotic comments made here. Shun knifes are Stamped?? LOL!
About Shun by Kershaw:
Forged in the samurai sword-making center of Seki City, Japan, Shun features centuries-old craftsmanship updated for the modern Western kitchen.
I think you need to research a little better before you go about and post insane comments that are based upon pure speculation and lack of knowledge. Never ever disrespect the traditions nor values of the Japanese knife makers by posting such insane and profound comments. The only thing Stamped here is your head!
Well, in the end the forged/stamped distinction is fairly unimportant. There are good and bad knives made by both methods.
Shun strikes me as good knives, but also as a pretty poor value. The first time I used one, it was the best knife I'd ever used. Then I was introduced to better Japanese knives that in some cases cost half the price of Shun's top line.
Shun is a brand made by Kai, a very large Japanese company. The Shun line appears to be designed for Western home cooks who are transitioning to Japanese knives. They are very heavy for Japanese knives, and are ground at the relatively blunt bevel angles of 16° per side (sharper than most Euro knives, but less so than the more high end brands). The bevel angle can be changed by a skilled sharpener, but the chunky weight can't. I recently bought a Hiromoto guyto for just over half the price of a comparable Shun Elite knife. In terms of sharpness, sharpenability, and edge retention, the Hiromoto spanks the Shun. It is also designed with a better blade shape, in my oppinion ... as are the Tojiros, Macs, Misonos, Blazens, Hattoris, etc.
I own the Wusthof Culinar line and they are said to be the best on the market today by many top chef´s and consumer sites. However I purchased a Shun Santoku knife from the Classic line and I must admit that the Shun out performs the Wusthof in all manners. I have not honed the Shun since I got it and that is over 3 weeks ago! I did a lot of looking around since I wanted a Japanese knife but I was sold on the Shun for it´s looks and feel and the performance of it came as a bonus. I still have to find a knife in this price category that out performs the Shun.
" I still have to find a knife in this price category that out performs the Shun."
I'm not surprised the Shun works wonderfully for you and that it outperforms your Wusthof; it's an excellent knife. You can find better ones, though, for similar or less money.
Pretty much anything sold at www.korin.com or www.japanesechefsknife.com in a similar price range.
For real price/performance leaders, I'd recommend looking at Mac, Tojiro, and the Hiromoto A.S. knives. Korin has been pushing the Togihara knives as an alternative to Tojiro, but I have no experience with them.
I am shopping for a new knife like many that have posted here and I am glad to have found this site. I am thinking very hard about the MAC knives but I do wonder about a German knife company named Messermeister. They have beautiful looking knives but I have not seen them mentioned here or really anywhere else that I frequent. Any input on this brand?
First, can anyone who makes or sells knives, especially the CULTco people, please stay the heck out of this? You are biased and your opinion is without value to the users of this website.
Second, specifically in response to the numerous Cutco brochure cut&pastes in this thread, yes! You should use the right knife for the right job. The right knife for cooking is a chef's knife. Period. Only once you have mastered the chef's knife are you skilled enough to correctly apply other knives. Furthermore, only significantly different knives are even valid options. Maximum, a knife roll should contain:
Basic chef's knife
Flexible boning knife
Serrated knife (offset is best)
Paring knife (ONLY if engaging in fine detail work...not a home function)
Any set of knives fails to provide the user with personal input on choosing each tool based on its use, which is subjective.
Steak knives are not a valid example of quality. Like cutting boards, buy only good enough steak knives to meet your frequency of use and plan on throwing them away once they're worn out (2 yrs tops). I don't buy paper towels with a lifetime warranty either, and for the same reason.
Hi,
I've just recently done a lot of research for a knife purchase and have become somewhat of a knife geek. After extensive research, I decided to buy MAC knives, the MTH-80 being one of them. I am amazed at the performance of this knife. Quite a pleasure to work with. I've also bought other knives from their professional series and am quite delighted with them.
Some people might consider expensive knives to be a luxury (I know I did, until I tried a high end knife), but I know they are definitely worth the INVESTMENT. They'll last you a lifetime (if you take good care of them) and they will work better during their lifetime, so in the end they don't really cost any more money.
As for the above posting, mentioning which knives are essential in a kitchen, I have to disagree. Obviously a good chef or santoku knife is a good start, but the rest depends on what you do in the kitchen. If you never debone anything, what use is a deboning knife?
Just my opinion.
OF COURSE the Japanese knives are going to cut through stuff better. They have a smaller blade angle. IE, they're sharper. I bet a huge razor blade would have won this test hands down. But do you want a huge razor blade as a kitchen knife?
There are LOTS of other things that matter as much as, or more, than how sharp a knife is. Edge retention, blade geometry, fit and finish, handle feel, blade weight balance, etc etc.
Silly and rather pointless experiment, unless you just wanted to know which of the commercial kitchen knives is the sharpest.
:angry: :angry: :unsure:
I own a set of henckels and shun knives. I also own a Misono santoku and and a hattori gyotu (9.5 inch), and a couple of yoshikane (usuba and deba) knives. I really love all my knives, and would have trouble picking a favorite of the bunch. If you guys wanna try a killer veggie chopper, give a usuba or nakiri (the nakiri is my fav. for veggies) knife a try. My shun nakiri is just awsome on the veggies. I guess I could say that the henckle's are ho hum compared the all the japanese ones Ive been using. Ive snaped a couple of henkle boning knives over the years, and found them to be super brittle, but still nice and soso edge holders. The Deba knife chops chicken and fish bones all day.
I also have an ancient set of unknown origin carbon steel knives. You have to sharpen more often with these, but they get scary sharp and function very well. I sometimes wonder what makes knives so interesting, it must have something to do with our survival instinct is all I can figure. We could use stone or glass knives and still get the jobs done that we do in the kitchen, but longer lasting edges, superior ergonomics, cool shapes, bevel tapers, fancy laser etching etc etc seems to capture a knife enthusiests eye, and he's hooked :)
I feel comfortable with my collection and feel I can tackle anything from butchering (got me a 8" wustof butcher knife heheheheh), to delicate paring.
Everyone has hit the nail on the head. You really only need a good chef's or gyotu, boning knife for chicken and fish (I like wustof's, but use the shun just cause its so scary sharp), and I use my 6 " utility knife more often than not, simply because sometimes in a big cooking project, you need to swap from meats to veggies, or you just dont have enough room for the big chefs knife. I admit that the rest are just toys. I just use steel rods to reshape the edge and if it needs more than that, they hit the stones.
Comfort, now this is something I do have an opinion on. I have huge hands, and find some knives really lacking in the handle dept, specially in the smaller utility knives. I actually have 2 favorites here, the hattori has the best handle out of all my knives, but I dont like the bolster as well as the shuns. Thats what keeps me going back to those knives, cause I tend to pinch the blade just in front of bolster for control, and nothing Ive used yet has topped the shun balance and fit, at the bolster. All of em hold an edge thats outstanding, and for me to measure how long the edges actually hold for usage would be insane.
I know this sorta goes against the grain, and this opinion is based on what I find most comfortable to use (the knife I allways grab outof the block).
The hattori KD gyotu 240mm (9.5inch)
Shun sontoku 7"
Shun Utility knife
Misono sontoku when the others out of action (Bolster is a bit clumsy for me, but this is a very nice knife)
Shun 6"Boning knife
Wustof 8" Butchers knife when Dinner doesnt come out as planned.. or the critics need coaxing.
In other words, Try em before you buy em and remember, everybodys got an opinion. In my book, you couldnt go wrong with any of knives talked about here 'cept perhaps Cutco.
I guess I have an advantage in that I spend every Summer in Japan and can get some very good knives there relatively cheaply. My wife's family is also Hattori. :)
My question for all here is, has anyone ever tried the Scary Sharp (TM) ;-P System for sharpening knives?
Anybody have any feedback on http://www.mundialusa.com/ knives, particularly the Oliver line?!?! http://www.mundialusa.com/olivier.html
After reading an article in Cooks Magazine about the MAC 6.5" Santoku, I acquired one (as a gift from my wife). It forever changed my mind about Stamped vs Forged blades. I exclusively use the MAC for almost everything (ok...I don't use it as a steak knife at the table as it would scare my baby daughter).
The Henckels Pro-S set I got for my wedding just now sits in the knife block and collects dust.
-ikiru
*enjoy the sauce*
Has anyone tried/tested/used any Knives by WMF? I think they are more a general home type knive rather than a chefs pro knive, but I saw them recently and liked the lok and feel
[color=blue:f74602db50][size=24:f74602db50]i think the main part about this review that was left out was the warranty on the knives. most have a lifetime gaurantee (20 years or less). our CUTCO knives have a FOREVER guarantee. no catch, just forever. we've been in business since 1949 and we havent gone broke yet. i think the chef knife wasnt the best to test with, if he'd used a Double D (serrated) edge, the results would have been quite different. Also, i think there should be a robotic control doing the actual testing for consistency like they do on Mythbusters to make the results more accurate and eliminate any possibility of human error. if anyone reads this, have an excellent day/night and whatever you do, DONT BUY PAMPERED CHEF or DEXTER and RUSSEL, for your own sake, PLEASE.
Thank You.[/size:f74602db50][/color:f74602db50]
I'm tempted to call that out for trolling for having a large font, blue text, and all caps in some parts.
If a knife performs terrible, no warranty in the world is gonna make it better. There are so many knives that flat out beat the Cutco in performance and price that the only explanation to their success is the nature of their marketing.
A wise consumer goes online to compares prices and reviews. Hopefully they will find a website like this where an objective review has been written. Or better yet, go to forum where they can ask questions (here, knifeforums, bladeforums, eGullet).
frankly, for a rep to come shilling is one thing.
adding insult is the above disparaging about the competition.
in my opinion, such messages should be deleted outright.
I'm not going to delete an occasional response from a Cutco salesperson. It's one thing to support the product you sell even if you do it in a unprofessional manner, it's another if you spam the board. I will delete spam. I was also going to change the font size and color, but since SirShazar called it out I won't (his post won't make sense anymore).
"My question for all here is, has anyone ever tried the Scary Sharp (TM) ;-P System for sharpening knives?"
yes, it's what i've been using for a little while. my impression is that it works exactly as well as comparable stones, but no better. the advantage is that it's cheaper to start with, and you can easily try many different grits to figure out what works for you.
the disadvantage is that it's more expensive in the long run, and a bit of a nuissance. the paper wears out quickly, and cutting it and sticking it flat and changing it is a pain.
i think i'll keep using it until i run out of sandpaper, and then get a medium quality set of stones.
two products that i love are the leather strop (with abrasive compound) and the glass-smooth steel sold by handamerican.com. they work really well for keeping a knife razor sharp. i go a long, long time between real sharpening sessions by using these.
The best product I've found for sharpening Cutco knives is a bench grinder that spins at several thousand RPMs, loaded with a very coarse carbide wheel. It makes lots of cool sparks, and when you're done, the knives don't take up as much room in the recycling bin.
I sometimes rig up a scary-sharp system if I want to sharpen knives at someone else's house.
Sharpening on waterstones takes me a third of the time it would take me to sharpen on a scary-sharp system, and the results are usually better.
I sometimes use it to get a nice even looking edge, but I still finish on my King 1k/6k.
Just got into the whole knife thing recently, and have been looking to invest in a good chef/santoku... which is how I stumbled across here. I'm curious Michael, if you plan to ever do a review like this specifically for santokus?
I still haven't decided on one or the other, but I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whole rocking motion you have to go through w/ chef knives...
If your choice is between a chef knife and a Santoku, get a chef knife. You can get a chef knife with a granton edge if you want, but aside from that, a chef knife can double as a slicer if you want, they are generally larger than Santokus and since the blade comes to a point, you get get the tip into tighter places than a Santoku. From a purely professional standpoint, I don't recall seing anyone on The Iron Chef using a Santoku -- they use a chef knife.
Just to say to most of the negative comments that you really don't know what you are talking about. I have used them all and the Japanese knives will beat anything hands down.
About sharpness, even under tests where all knives are sharpened together to be fair, nothing has beat my Global or ceramic knife. Not american, german or otherwise.
But Good Luck to all of you
With all this talk about sharpness, can anyone recommend a good/complete solution for newbee's? I'm a bit intimidated by the sharpening process but love the idea of owning a high quality knife.
BTW, great comments everyone, very informative!
Thanks all.
I recommend your read Chard Ward's sharpening guide on eGullet:
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=26036
Personally, I like to sharpen my kitchen knives on Japanese waterstones. With a little practice you will produce an edge that far surpass anything done in a factory.
I don't like most of the sharpening systems out there, most of them will ruin your knife.
i wanted to get the MAC knife you were using, but live in British Columbia Canada.. where would u suggest I buy the knife
www.macknife.ca would work, methinks . . .
Try http://www.knifemerchant.com they have just about everything.
I notice that only one of the knives test had 'dimples'. What is the purpose of the dimples? By the way, I ordered one from Amazon. Hasn't arrived yet. Can't wait to have a real knife for a change.
The dimples reduce the surface area of the blade that touches the food being cut - in theory reducing drag and the potential for food (like potatoes or cucumbers) to stick to the side of the knife. I have not come up with a reasonable test to prove this works - just some anecdotal evidence that it reduces the amount of food that sticks, but doesn't solve the problem.
Stay away from cutco.
Get a knife with good balance and feel.
I have been using Henkels for >15 years now and they havent failed me , lost my Chef knife a few years back and bought a cusinart chef replacement at Marshalls for $15.00. my trusty 7-8 inch henkels with the full tang & wooden handle has been used the most for basic cutting and dicing, butchering deboning tchrough cartillage and ligaments, most fine work is done with this knife.
Actually any knife will work well if it feels good in your hand. The trick is learning when and how to sharpen them. Get a good heavy water stone that doesnt crumble with both rough and fine grit per side, and learn how to sharpen at the right angle depending on your use.
I recently treated myself to a Kershaw damascus 8 utility and I love it. Works flawlessly, but still use my henkels utility when im alone. The Kershaw is too pretty and expensive to use for all around work - (to debone a leg of lamb or pork shoulder). I should start using it more often. my wife suggests that I frame and display the knife by the way I swoon over it.
I feel sorry for my Sister and friends who purchased these Cutco knives from a family member who just started out in Cutco sales,(he made a killing) They have good bread knives that work though. And the chef knives could be used in the garden too. They have a lifetime warranty.
Unbalanced and blade heavy, way overpriced.
I had suggested selling them on ebay. But she keeps it as a status symbol friends who dont even know how to slice and dice. She does say it works fine for her. Get a knife with soul Id tell her.
First of all, I'd like to thank Michael for an informative and fun-to-read guide to knives. I also enjoyed reading everyone's comments; many people made valid observations about some of the shortcomings of the tests and gave helpful advice on finding the right knife, what knives they favor, information concerning hardness/brittleness, edge geometry, etc.
I just wanted to comment that not all knives are created the same. Someone claimed that any knife can achieve the same edge when sharpened and that it is pointless to pay a lot for a knife. This is not true. I have a very cheap Wusthof (I think it's Grand Prix) which I've sharpened to a very sharp edge, but it loses it quickly, sometimes midway through a shift at work! The ultimate indicator - cutting through a sushi roll topped with ripe avocado slices and wrapped in plastic wrap. A somewhat dull knife will mush the avocado and resist cutting the wrap, whereas a sharp knife will slide right through.
I also want to share another way to test the sharpness of a blade - try sliding the edge along a fingernail (I usually use my thumb nail) or a cutting board. If it's sharp, it should get stuck. A dull knife will simply slide across the surface. This is a nice method because you can quickly check each section of your blade for dull spots, which might be difficult using the razor method.
I don't really understand why that cutco French Chef knife didn't cut things well. True, I do demos for Cutco.
But, because I do demos all the time, I can tell you that I have NEVER had the slightest problem in cutting anything with any of my knives. I was very surprised at the total negative reviews that the french chef knife got.
True, my favorite knife (the trimmer) does have the DD edge (which ISN'T serrated, believe it or not). But, I use the French Chef all the time, and have never had the slightest of problem. Looks like something weird happened in your test.
Dear Sir,
I've heard that there are some Brazilian brands in the market such as Tramontina and Mundial brands. It seems that those Brazilian forged knives are quite good and they have good prices.
Do you have any comment about them? Have you ever tested them?
Thank you.
I have two MAC chef knives which I've had since I was a kid. They're probably 35 years old. They look so different from the ones they make today, and I'm probably going to have to invest in new knives at some point soon, but I love my old knives. They keep a wonderful edge. Are beautifully balanced. And, they look nice. Thank you for such a good presentation. It's nice to know my favorite knives are still around, and still great quality.
Wow, what a great read. I never knew about all these other manufacturers!
I've recently purchased my first set of knives from here:
Chefs Knives
I grabbed a selection of their
Global Knives after reading up on them on the 'net. I love them but I may look into some of the other recommendations here.
I need to grab some kind of sharpening tool though. Can anyone recommend one? Is it best to go with a steel or whetstone??
Thanks!
Followed the recommendation and purchased a Mac Chefs knife. I looked everywhere and couldn't find one. Bought some Wusthof in the interim. The Wusthof chefs knife is nice and I really like the pairing knife.
I finally read this review again for the 10th time and just ordered a Mac Chefs knife off of Amazon. Came in three days and is wonderful. Never had a knife of any kind this sharp except a razor blade. And it was sharp out of the box. Could it get sharper? I don't know, I am not going to touch the blade with a stone, only a professional when it needs it.
Did a little test myself with a Global, Wusthof and the Mac. Laid them out and let several people cut carrots and tomato. Some liked the Wusthof and some liked the Global, but ALL said WOW! when using the Mac. Unscientific consensus between all my friends is that the Mac was hands down the best. One friend has one of those big blocks with the complete Wusthoff set and seemed a little sad that the Mac clearly was better.
Thanks,
Kirk
Because i'm a grad student from Le CordonBleu so i got Wusthof (full)set and Misono UX10 9.4"Chef's knives, 9.4"Slicing knives. I can assure you guys that they're good knives. But after 1 full year in school and 5 years cooking ... none of my chef use german knives, all of them use japanese knives, i'd try Global, Masamoto, Hattori and Shun from my chefs they are much better than german's knives. Not that i never sharpen my knives, i'm using #300, 1200, 6000 whetstone for sharpening my knives. Wusthof is a little heavy compare to japanese brand but i need them because japanese knives don't have some knives that i needed, Misono is the best in my opinion, Global is good but the handle not comfortable for me, Masamoto....what can i say...it's different from others this one is japanese-style knives and cost more than $2000 each(it's very good if you wanna ask, slice fish like a butter maybe easier than butter :P), Hattori...i like my Misono more than this one but the blade is so beautiful i just can't stop looking this knives (it should be a perfect gift), Shun is sharp (just 1 word for them) but i just don't like the handle it's not that it doesn't fit my hand but i already get used to the handle like wusthof and misono.
Thanks :-)
Yes, it could get sharper than the factory edge, but it takes a combination of good tools, skilled hands, and knowledge. If you get them sharpened by someone else, make sure they aren't using high speed grinding wheels and belt sanders. If you see sparks, than there is too much heat and the edge could lose it's hardness.
The best sharpeners don't rely heavily on their electric powered tools, and do most of the sharpening by hand on waterstones.
Dear readers,
I invite you all to take a visit at the website below:
http://www.mundial-usa.com/gourmet.html
They are Brazilian made forged knives. Good quality with low prices.
Hugs.
My brother has some Mundial knives and they are good. Almost as good as my Wusthoff, but not as good as my Mac.
I would love to have that Olivier Anquier set. I really like them.
Hello,
I am a newcomer to cooking and I'm looking for a good chef's knife. Cooking for me will be a hobby as opposed to a profession. After reading the comparison of chef's knives I feel more informed than before but I am left with one question.
What about 10 inch chef's knives? The comparison mentioned mainly 8 inch knives. What are the differences? What considerations are important? Is it strictly a matter of comfort or are there other factors?
Thanks
Hector
Hi Hector -
I have a 10 and 8 and 6 inch chefs. the 8 gets the heaviest workout but the 10 is very useful for larger / more forceful / even two handed tasks.
that said, if you are very tall with long arms and a real good swing arc for rocking, a ten incher might be more suited to your "cutting geometry"
conversely if you are not tall, with shorter arms, the 8 inch may be more comfortable/natural to use.
either would be a good choice - but the best advice is to go get the brand specific knives in hand - they must "feel right" in your hand - that's a matter of knife handle design plus your hand size/grip/etc.
if it doesn't feel right when you pick it up and handle it, odds are you will not be long term happy with that knife.
thank you for having done such a good job! your review has made the process of knife selection much easier for me, a beginner in this area.
being in a remote asian country, buying a kitchen knife is simply a matter of selecting whatever the local supermarkets have imported. a superior kitchen knife is unheard of, and the shelves are saturated with knives from China. occassionally, there are some knives from Japan, but their brands are not even listed in your test [very unpopular i suppose].
i have recently placed a purchase a set of Chef Knife and Paring Knife by Kai at asianfoodchannel.com. the set costed me S$99, approximately U.S.$72.35 [price not inclusive of postage and taxes].
according to the description, "the KAI SEKIMAGOROKU knives dates back to the 13th century, during the Kamakura era, where swords had been forged with the finest quality of soil from the district of Seki. The very distinguished swordsmith – Magoroku created a unique method of sword crafting. The transition from the Edo period to the Meiji era popularized knife crafting, convincing many swordsmiths in Seki to produce cutlery instead of swords and ushered in the KAI SEKIMAGOROKU Stainless Steel Knife series."
and according to the description again, the KAI’s Yamato factory is "Japan's number 1 knife manufacturer".
since i am new in this area, i would just like to post this to the whole world of knives enthusiasts out there and hopefully someone more knowledgeable can help me in verifying these statements.
Above is "Cool Breeze's" post from a while back....I was just reading in amazement. Firstly as a chef of 12 years, i feel qualified in commenting. A global isn't sharp?? So why does it win in most of the test categories it is entered in...against the likes of Wusthof and Henckels??? I have many japanese knives and I also have a Henckels 4 star chef's knife, which, quite frankly, is rubbish in comparison. Having read many articles on these so called "wonderful" knives, I felt compelled to get myself one. Big disappointment. For that sort of money i'd expect a big improvement on "regular" knives....and there wasn't. After a long time sharpening it on stones and leather hones, i finally have managed to get a "reasonable" edge on it......but in my opinion, it doesn't warrant the reviews it gets. And the Henckels santoku is sharper than any Japanese knife out of the box.....outrageous. Try some proper japanese stuff.....get a Misono UX10 or a Kanetsugu Pro-m....these have ridiculous factory edges on them., as do the Hattori's and Hiromoto's. I hear no mention of Japanese manufacturers in your post, so how do you arrive at the conclusion that this Henckels is better than them all?? Also, you make no mention of the different steels, or for that the Rockwell hardness scale. A VG-10 steel with 64Hrc will take a screaming edge on it , and will blow the socks off virtually any "non-japanese" knife.
A real good test.....drop a cherry tomato and slice it midair. This tests an edge rather well,as well as testing how qick and accurrate your stroke is.
A VERY good edge and it drops clean cut. A not so perfect edge and the tomato flies across the room. A less dramatic test I liked was to hold the blade edge up on the counter and drop a ripe-black olive on it from 12".
A real good edge-the olive is impaled on the blade half severed. You can even note if it's 1/4 cut,1/2 3/4. Naturally..you want to stay with a certain size olive like a large pitted as opposed to trying a medium one time and a jumbo another. Fancy cured olives may vary.
Note that VG 10 usually has an HRC around 60-61. Like other steels it has a max it can be made as,but gets tempered to have a desired blend of hardness and toughness. Some Carbon steels range from 60-64. Powder steels can be even harder CPM has a tool steel, Rex 121 that can be heat treated to 71,and another,Rex 76 that can reach 70,but Rex 76 is much tougher at a HRO of 67. S30V which they designed for knives is tougher yet but would tend to be HRC 62-64. So far nobody is making a knife from Rex 76,and if they do...it won't be cheap.
Shun uses a powder steel named SR2,Henckel has MR 66 in their Cermax line. These may actually be Powder Steels from Daido or Hitachi custom blended for these makes,in fact,they may even be the same steel.
I noticed a cook I work with who had a Tojiro DP..but it wasn't near as sharp as my Forschner. I have no doubt the Tojiro can get a lot sharper.
Unless you regard a knife as disposable,sharpening skills are part of the mix.
I'm sure a new Blazen starts sharp, but inevitably it will dull. If you can't sharpen it better than my $30 Forschner....you wasted $100.
The A+ edge is something you EARN. You can't just buy it....well...you CAN get a ceramic and if it does not chip or crack it's pretty sharp for a long time.
well i agree to diss on some points mentioned.
i am a current CUTCO rep. and also a chef by trade :).
i have several of the tools mentioned and several that were not and use them at a regular pace at work. when first opened , all tned to have great stats. not like the ones given their. my CUTCO chefs knive slices green onions like a warm knive through butter. if i had to rate one as least id say the Forschner Victorinox. they are the standard ones at my work place, for fnding reasosna, AKA cheep owners, cheep knives. and hardest to keep on edge/charpness on!!!!!! i dont rate CUTCO at the top either, as a pro. knive for restaurant cooking, the handle is the worst, and the size of the blade is not as well as it could be. i use my cutco at work and at the presentations, same set if i may add, but nothing will change my mind about my cheep corner market chefs knive i bought in my travels. truly a wonder.
i guess if u have the hanks or the cuts, wush or shun, its up to you which suits ur needs.
and i agree with what someone stated before me, they need to re do the test, because its not correct.
Hello all.
First of all, Michael, I wish to thank you so very much for the in depth, and informational, review you presented. Not knowing anything about knives, I learned a lot, and I made a purchase, or two, based solely on your review.
I purchased the MAC that you rated highest and cannot be more thrilled. In fact, I loved it so much I purchased one for my best friend. She, too, loves it.
I've had mine now for a year, and use it daily. It is still plenty sharp, however, I know the time will come when I must sharpen it. And, I am scared to death of sharpening it on my own for fear of screwing it up. Can anyone here suggest a knife sharpener that would do my MAC justice, but that would still be easy enough for me to use without any prior experience? Also, are any of those ready to use multi-angle knife sharpeners really effective, and more importantly, are they SAFE to use on a good knife?
I thank you all in advance, and look forward to a knight in shining armour coming to my rescue. :)
Sincerely,
Yvonne
>>for fear of
point 1: stay away from anything electric / powered - no matter what!
I'm a fan of free-hand manual sharpening.
first, it's pretty difficult to realize your fear by "hand sharpening" - you're gonna "feel" something isn't right - if you get there, step back and think - it'll work out.
second, it's just not that "hard" - anyone who majored in nuclear physics with a minor in rocket science can handle it.
(yeah - that's a joke....)
here's a good primer: http://users.ameritech.net/knives/ward.htm
thirdly, if you take care of your knife, use a steel regularly, don't hack open tin cans with it, use a wood / plastic board, it's not going to get so far out of "sharp geometry" that a minor touch up will not suffice.
fourthly, don't get all buffaloed by folks with 65 step programs to a sharp knife and four tons of "equipment" to get you there. you're probably not going to shave with it - so maintaining the cutting profile with a medium and fine stone + steeling will work just peachy keen.
if you decide to become a sushi chef and need to cut 0.003 inch thick slices of eel, you might need more attention to a finely crafted honed, stropped, polished, whizzybanged edge. for a chicken, not necessary.
what i rate as the best
Misono 8.25 inch Chef's Knife.
and great knives like
2nd best
Glestain Knives
then
Masahiro Chef Knife
Shun Elite 8" Chef Knife
Hattori KF Chef Knife 8.25"
Hiromoto Knives
i thought you were doing an update... can you review my top 2 to give the best information
Misono 8.25 inch Chef's Knife.
is the misono ux10 to be tech...
it is the best
"if you decide to become a sushi chef and need to cut 0.003 inch thick slices of eel, you might need more attention to a finely crafted honed, stropped, polished, whizzybanged edge. for a chicken, not necessary."
In response to Dilbert, sushi chefs only use one tool for sharpening their knives - the sharpening stone. They'll usually go from coarser to finer stones, but tend to use a fine stone to touch up everyday. It's always a good idea to keep a sharp edge instead of sharpening a dull one.
Also, eel is never sliced super thin because it is soft to begin with. Only tough cuts of fish (i.e. various white fish, geoduck, abalone) are cut thin.
Extreme magnification has shown that sharpening steels merely create micro serrations on an edge, which creates more friction. The extra friction makes it easier to cut, but no honing is really achieved. A fine sharpening stone, on the other hand, creates a mirror-like surface, minimizing friction. This allows the blade to cut with less tearing, which ruptures fewer cells and reduces oxidation.
On November 29, 2008 at 07:54 AM, ytav817 (guest) said...
Subject: Need advice on proper sharpening of knives...
Hello all.
First of all, Michael, I wish to thank you so very much for the in depth, and informational, review you presented. Not knowing anything about knives, I learned a lot, and I made a purchase, or two, based solely on your review.
I purchased the MAC that you rated highest and cannot be more thrilled. In fact, I loved it so much I purchased one for my best friend. She, too, loves it.
I've had mine now for a year, and use it daily. It is still plenty sharp, however, I know the time will come when I must sharpen it. And, I am scared to death of sharpening it on my own for fear of screwing it up. Can anyone here suggest a knife sharpener that would do my MAC justice, but that would still be easy enough for me to use without any prior experience? Also, are any of those ready to use multi-angle knife sharpeners really effective, and more importantly, are they SAFE to use on a good knife?
I thank you all in advance, and look forward to a knight in shining armour coming to my rescue. :)
Sincerely,
Yvonne
Yvonne,
I too got the MAC MTH-80 about a month ago. I liked it so much I also got the Pro Paring knife and the 10.5 inch bread knife as well.
I agree with Dilbert, sharpen my own knives and enjoy it (more like I'm addicted to it), but if those 4 steps don't make you feel good step five is get it professionaly sharpened.
It only cost about 10 - $30 to get various levels of first class professional knife sharpening. This will get you back to where your can keep it sharp on your crock stick "steel" like you are now. You have to be careful who you go to. I would recommend D&R Sharpening in PA known as Japanese Knife Sharpening http://www.japaneseknifesharpening.com/sharpening.html
You can mail your knives in and get them sharpened using water stones as suggested.
Thanks for opening this interesting discussion. Permit me to ask a question.
I would like to be able to suggest to friends a 'modern' equivalent to a fine Dexter knife I inherited from my father, who used it in his bakery. It was probably purchased in the 1940's or 1950's.
My knife is a Dexter 40912 12" round tip slicer made of high carbon steel with a rosewood handle.
The blade is 12" x 1.25" wide. The cutting edge is straight. My guess is that it started life as 13 or 14 gauge stock.
It tapers uniformly along the back of the blade, from 0.081" near the handle to 0.040" near the tip
At 6" from the handle, it is 0.061" at the back and tapers to 0.044" midway between the back and the cutting edge.
The blade has a delightful flexibility. It sings when flexed. It holds an edge beautifully. It slices without 'wedging' the material being sliced, resulting in its being my preferred knife for slicing products like unbaked ice-box cookies which contain nuts, half-finished (untoasted) biscotti (again with nuts and/or fruit) or softened gingerbread. All of these are easily 'torn' by thicker knives
There have been times when I would very much like a similar knife with a shorter blade, say 8". Can anyone recommend a knife of this length? It seems modern designers believe it must have scallops or some other eye-catching feature. Believe me, this basic knife does the job.
Thanks,
baumgrenze
I've have a Wusthof Classic 20cm chefs knife for several years, and I am extremely pleased with it. I'm surprised it ranked as low in the review as it did - like some of the other posters suggested, it would have been best to have sharpened all knives prior to assessment instead of relying on the factory edge. The western knives are often of softer steal and will typically be duller out of the box then many the Japanese ones - conversely, they're easier to keep sharp with regular sharpening. Any serious cook has a sharpening stone and keeps his or her knives razor sharp. Regarding the Wusthof classic, I am very pleased with the balance and how it feels in my hand. My advice to anyone shopping for knives is to go to the store and hold the unit in your hand and assess how it feels. I use mine every day, and it's still in perfect condition.
- bill s
I found an old beat up Forschner (chef) knife about 10 years ago. It had a nylon (fibrox) handle. It was made in Brazil. I bring this knife with me whenever I have to prepare food at someones' house! I am not a chef. I love to cook, though. I found a whole line of yellow Fibrox handled Forschner knives at 50% off, and have not looked back! I feel that this is the most important aspect of choosing cutlery. If you are confident when using the tool, that is the right one. I have a J.A. Henckels block set ($400) and I have also used my brothers' SHUN (REALLY SHARP...REALLY INTIMIDATING!). The Fibrox handles offer the best slip resistance, are endorsed by the NSF, and can be thrown into the dishwasher (I don't, though!) I appreciate forums like these, because everyone has a different perspective, and thus< I am offering mine!
baumgrenze -
Dexter knives are still in production - see
http://www.dexter1818.com/default.asp
8 inch is a very good length - probably the most used chef style in my block.
Thank you very much Gary, Dilbert, and all of you who have taken the time to answer my question.
I'm sorry I have not returned until now, however, I had absolutely NO idea I had received replies here, and worst of all, I can't log in for some reason. sigh.
Anyways, you have given me, and everyone here, much good information that I must now read through and digest (haha).
I do send everyone wishes for a happy, healthy, and delicious 2009!
:)
Yvonne
We love our 8 inch Mundial Chef's Knife. It's a great buy for $40. (Can't remember which line.)
I am left-handed and own a Shun Classic 6" Chef's knife. While the handle is definately direction, leftie's should not rule it out before trying. The right-handed model actually fits my hand better than the lefty. This is all dependent upon your hand, but you should try them first.
I got fed up with my knife situation after Thanksgiving 2008. I have since become obsessed with having sharp knives.
I got seriously into sharpening at that time and now have an arsenal of whet stones, an Edgepro guided stone setup, bench strop, a 1x42" belt grinder with abrasive belts down to 9 micron and 4 leather belts for power stropping down to a mirror finish. I have since sharpened over a thousand knives (plus a few machetes, lawn mower blades, axes, etc. at a cost of about $1 a knife. I could have spent a lot less on just getting my knives professionally sharpened but I thoroughly enjoy it and can get anything sharp any time I want, when I need it, and continue to do so in the future.
I purchased the Mac Mighty 8" Chef with dimples first do in a large part to this review, a Mac 10" bread knife and the MAC PFK-30 paring knife because I liked the Chef so well. They are all great knives, my favorites now. I got 4 paring and utility knifes from Forschner for about $15 combined. They are also amazing for the money but the MAC's are quite incredible.
I have since polished the paring knife to an overhaul mirror finish, brought the blade angle down to a racy 10 degrees, custom reshaped and polished the handle so the wood and metal fit, look and feel better. It is like a razor and still holds an edge for hand work (never sees a cutting board).
The MAC Shun, and Global (as well as most other knives) come sharpened (finished) from the factory on belt grinders. This gives a convex edge which cuts very well in the kitchen. They all normaly come very sharp. But, I agree with many of the posters that testing knives with a factory edge is very misleading and testing would mean a lot more if all knives were sharpened by someone who knew what they were doing. My Mac came very sharp out of the box. This is the case for most Mac's and Globals and Shuns but quality varies. I tested a Global Chef at Williams and Sonoma with a wire burr on one side of the blade so big that I am sure a ceramic steel wouldn't remove. They wouldn't let me try. I don't know why as I don't think anyone would buy it like that. It just wasn't finished. I was going to try it on a potato but what was the point. You need to sharpen, or have sharpened, most knives either right out of the box or at some point later. I can make a knife sharper then they come from the factory on any knife I have seen. Testing knives after sharpening to a uniform finish (at least in grit) would make the testing much more informative. Some things I would leave from the factory. For instance the German knives could be sharpened at a 18 to 20 degree angle per side while the MAC and Global would be at a 15 degree angle as recommended by the manufacture and based on the hardness of the steels. But, testing a knife as sharpened by the factory is crude with a lot of unrealistic variables and they all need to be sharpened initially to the same finish, at least say down to 320 or 600 grit. Every knife I ever sharpened was better afterword then new.
The other thing not covered in the review, as mentioned ,is edge holding ability. I can tell you the MAC is very good.
Adding personal preferences to the sharpening process takes them to another level though. The fairly hard knives like the MAC, Shun and Global can be taken to higher level of blade angle, polish and thinness and still hold.
Thank you so much for the review.
has anyone ever heard of Gunter Wilhelm Knives. Sounds too good to be true?
Sounds like they could be good knives but they are soft steel compared with the top knives rated here.
Watch the sharpening video. Anything you can sharpen with a carbide V sharpener or a serrated sharpening steel is pretty soft. Those are both crude methods for soft steels. They are made from 440 steel. Good steel if heat treated properly, comparable to Wusthof's and Henkel's but not on par with the Global, MAC, and several others in the "Japanese Western style Knives" which were rated and came out on top here. These are made from harder steels that can be sharpened to more acute angles and hold an edge longer.
I would not let that serrated sharpening steel, or carbide cutter near my MAC or Global, or even a Wusthof or Henkel for that matter. Whet stones only, or possibly a ceramic steel or crock stick.
put a unexperience driver behind a ferary and ask him what he thinks about the car.
The same happens here. When you know how to use a knife you can definetely get the job done without even knowing what brand you used.
Keep your knives sharp; thats what really matters and use the proper knive for the job. Use a brand new razor blade to slice a piece of paper and see how it works, try to get the same cutting results with a old blade.
It wont matter what brand blade you buy, It does not matter if you payed $300.00 or $.30 for it, it does not matter what "PROFESSIONALS" think wich blade has better reputation. IT JUST WONT WORK.
If i was going to give my oppinion here.I'll say:
Yes pay high dollar for a nice knife, but make sure is going to last,make sure it can be and get resharpened to give the same results every time you use it.
Me personaly put my money on cutsco, just because i know ill have a sharp knife to use for ever or untill i find something that really wows me, and that would be a knive that slices by itself.
Dont hate the game, hate the player, knives are not guilty some people can't use them.
All knives need shrpening.
Stamped knives may cut better than forged knives, but in the long run they will need more sharpening, and they will go blunt much faster than a good forged chef knife.
Another thing is that a stamped chef knife, if it fall on the flood - it may break in two. And that happened to me.
There are some great japanese forged chef knives, that have folded metal, or layers, that will always make them stronger and they will need less sharpening.
I see a lot of issues here with sharpening/steels etc.
1) Using a steel does not sharpen a knife, it hones it. Sharpening takes off quite a bit metal whereas honing realigns the blade to a better point. Honing should be done before every use, sharpening once a month max.
2) Geometry. What angle are you honing at? How do you keep a consistant angle of attack? Do you stroke towards the cutting edge (a sharpening stroke) or away from the edge (a honing stroke)
I'm waiting on my spyderco sharpener which gives a 20 degree edge at its tightest. If I have a German knife (about 22-25 degrees) I'll be giving it a finer point (do I have to worry about brittleness?) while on a Japanese knife (about 15 degrees), I'll actually be dulling it.
3) Miscellaneous. For those who use a coticule, this is not an issue, but many of the homechefs use a sharpening system (manual or electric). Any consideration of sharpening should take this into account. As for the issue of a factory edge, I have heard two stories about this:
a) many home users know they should use a sharp knife, but are afraid of knifes that are too sharp
b) professional chefs prefer to put their own individual edge on their knives to suit their tastes. in this way they're no different than a professional musician who cuts their own reeds or a golfer that has clubs modified for their particular swing
Whether either is true, I think it is widely accepted that factory shipped knives need to be sharpened fairly quickly.
>>honing realigns the blade to a better point.
incorrect. honing is a surface finish technique.
use of a steel does (re)align small dings in the edge, but it is not a honing operation.
>>geometry
indeed. I suspect this is what scares most people away from sharpening their own knives. it takes a little math a little practice and a little discipline to learn and hold the correct angle. by hand will never be as 'accurate' as by jig, but it's usually quite adequate.
>>worry about brittleness - not likely on a stainless German; definitely on the super duper Japanese types. I've seen posts about folks taking large chips out of a super hard long lasting ultra expensive micron edge sharp Japanese knife while dicing vegetables. seems counter productive, but if hard is good, I guess those folk figger more harder is more gooder.
>>professional chefs prefer to put their own individual edge on their knives to suit their tastes.
interesting thought. there's a raving thread someplace right now where one professional chef insists the entire professional world sends their knives out, and a different professional chefs insists they are all done in house by little elfin cheffies.
The post that states Wusthof's are stamped and not forged is a bit misleading. The vast majority of their lines and all of their premium lines are all forged blades. The only two lines that are stamped are the Emeril and the Gourmet.
The Classic, Ikon, Cordon Bleu, Culinar, and Grand Prix lines are all forged blades.
You said that you had decided that spine thickness didn't affect performance? In my experience, the thickness of the knife has a huge impact on the cleanliness of the cuts. A thin blade has to move less material as it passes through the product, resulting in less force needed. Single-ground blades are easier to keep sharp, and act less like a wedge than a double-ground knife. The thickness of the blade is the first thing I look for in a knife... thin knives are more comfortable for long-term use, and are more efficient.
I've tried most of these knives and have found my favorites. Yup, they're German. I had to revisit some of these Japanese knives after reading this but came to the same conclusion. A forged knife is simply better. I hold my chef's knife like this:
http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/knifeskills/ss/knifegrips.htm
Holding a knife in this way (the proper way?) does not work very well with knives that don't have a bolster. The Globals are the worst offenders (and the sexiest looking). So I will never have a Chef's knife without a bolster. If they don't have it, they just don't fit your hand when using the proper grip or have very good balance.
Sure... they are sharp and light. But, as previously mentioned, so is a giant razor blade... and I don't want to use that as my chef's knife either.
I use the "pinch" grip on my chef's knives and the Global handle makes my hand cramp up using this grip. My MAC fits my hand in this grip perfectly. Most of my Japanese knives do have bolsters - the Tojiros, MAC, Nenox... are you refering to the bolster (the part where the handle and blade touch or the fingerguard?
Well i have some Japanese knife , really amazing..
I started selling Cutco a few weeks ago and I hate it. It feels manipulative and I don't like using people as means to an end.
I was surprised, however, to see the Cutco knife perform so horribly in these tests. I'm not a chef, but when I tried Cutco the first time it seemed excellent; when I tried a few of your tests, my knife seemed to do pretty well.
Now, I know that Cutco could just seem good to me because the only other knives I've used came from Walmart. Do cutlery stores let you try before you buy? I'm a poor college student (viz. selling Cutco), so there's no way I can buy fancy knives right now.
I'm pretty interested in this whole "Cutco is the devil" thing because it would probably be the final push I needed to quit selling. I'm a little worried, however, that this could be like the Mac/PC thing, where emotions run high and people hold their ground no matter what arguments the opposition has. I could see y'all hating Cutco mostly because of the creepy, cultish attitude it breeds in its (mostly-cutlery-ignorant) reps. In any case, I'd appreciate any advice or info.
you've answered your own question.
Cutco is not "the devil" - it is an MLM scheme selling inexpensive knives for a lot of money.
I don't "hate" Cutco, I have no feelings about Cutco.
you can buy the same quality knife in Walmart for a whole lot less.
I'm not dumb enough to buy Cutco knives so I've never been upset by them.
I also do not buy $7000 exercise machines from late night TV shows.
"there's a sucker born every minute" - and the amount of obscenely overpriced merchandise on the market proves it.
as an MLM rep, your job is to "take" the "suckers" - yeah, one needs to ask whether one really wants to be part of that.
I didn't answer my own question. My question was: "Do cutlery stores let you try before you buy?"
Posts like yours are what make me iffy about taking advice from this site. ZOMG!!!!!!11 cutco!!!!1 i can buy better knives at walmart lolz
No, you can't buy better knives at Walmart. I'm not a cutlery expert, but I've had Walmart knives and they suck. Cutco knives don't suck. That's why you get posts that tell you they've had Cutco for 12 years or whatever and they love it. Look, I can believe that all the other knives are better than Cutco. What I can't believe is that all the people I've talked to who own Cutco and still love it are wrong.
You don't have to be "dumb" to buy Cutco. Maybe cutlery experts don't buy Cutco, but that's another thing entirely.
Obviously, this test and comparison was a step in the right direction. Chu seems to have thought long and hard about how to make his test fair. As he admitted, however, it was subjective. That's why I wanted to try some other knives. As I've said, all I've ever had is Walmart, and they suck. Cutco doesn't suck, but that doesn't mean it's the best (or fairly priced). Because of the vitriol of posts about Cutco, however, I think only a truly objective test is trustworthy. In a Cutco training video we watched, they talked about how the CATRA (Cutlery and Allied Trades Research Association) had tested Cutco and given it high marks. I don't know anything about this institution or whether it really is independent. Does anyone have a link to this or some other test? They had a cool sharpness-testing machine in the video that could conclusively end this argument.
Youtube version of the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrhC0QS2H9E
The interesting part is at 4:00.
so you are here to sell Cutco.
Wow, Dilbert, you saw right through my sales pitch. I can't believe my sneaky MLM training failed me! Usually, I can easily fool people into buying Cutco by damning it with faint praise. For example:
ME: So, Mrs. Smith, I can't promise that this set of knives is good or worth the price, but it sure doesn't suck.
MRS. SMITH: I'll take 20.
That didn't work with you, though. No sir. You are a Tough Customer. I thought you were joking when you said you didn't buy $7,000 exercise machines, but now I can see you're serious. You are like a wise consumer-god, here to rain wisdom down on us mortals.
Seriously, though, I want to know if you have any evidence for your dislike of Cutco. I assume that you do; all you have to do is reach back in your mind and think a bit and then write it here. It's exactly like the posting you've been doing, but with facts. For example, here are some useful types of posts you might want to try:
1. Personal experience. Even though anecdotal evidence is sketchy, it's better than nothing. Now, you wrote that you're "not dumb enough to buy Cutco knives," so you probably don't have any personal experience with them. Maybe you've used them at a friend's or relative's house, however, and can tell me how they relate to your favorite knives.
2. Technical expertise. It seems to me that the type of steel in the knives is what will cause the biggest changes in performance. I don't know anything about metallurgy, however. Maybe you do. This site has a lot of information on different steels: http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_materials.html. It says that 440A (the stuff Cutco is made from) has "high corrosion resistance" and 54-59 and the HRC (Rockwell hardness scale). I can't find a specific number on the Cutco site. If you know what steels other knives are made of, that would be helpful.
3. Empirical evidence. I talked about the CATRA tests in my earlier post and wondered if anyone had seen the results from these or any similar tests. These tests seemed better than Chu's because they have an electric sensor that reads the exact amount of effort needed to make a cut. Also, the machine can keep running the test until the knife is ground down, letting you see how long the knife will hold its edge. You can see a History Channel video that briefly describes the tests here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrhC0QS2H9E. The part about the tests starts at around 4:00. (I know you want to watch it, Dilbert; even if it's nothing more than prurient interest, you want to know how we soulless MLMers are trained to be so darn sneaky.)
P.S. Dilbert, if you want to buy any Cutco, I can hook you up.
P.P.S. Non-Dilberts, how much do you have to maintain your knives? Also, do you know what kind of steel they're made of? I'm getting interested in cutlery; I want to try some of those MACs and Globals.
The Sur La Table stores that I've been to have allowed knife testing. The mainly sell, Global, Wustof, Henckles, and Shun (if I recall correctly). All of these knives out perform Cutco at the same price point. I wouldn't agree with Dilbert on the whole Walmart has same quality knives - they're just a tad worse than the Cutco that I have but certainly a faction of the price.
If you can't find a store to let you try the knives before you buy, I recommend dishing out $20-$30 for a Forschner Chef's knife and see what we mean when we're looking for a good knife. Cutco is in a different category than the $20 for a set of Chicago Cutlery knives while all the other knives I reviewed are in the next category up from the Cutco. (The only issue is that the Cutco is priced in the same category as the good stuff.)
I think the advertising spam should be deleted.
Thanks, Michael. I'll try Sur La Table.
I don't know sure whether you saw my question in the post above, so I'll ask again: How much maintenance do these knives need? According to the metallurgy site I found, the 440A stainless steel (the one used in Cutco) has mediocre hardness but excellent corrosion resistance. Do these other knives have the same level of corrosion resistance? I'm not planning to abuse them, but if I buy some (the Forschner looks pretty attractive for $30) I want to know how much work I'll need to do to keep them sharp and pretty.
I'm not sure if I can quantify it since I haven't done any testing - but all the knives reviewed were maintained with simple washing with soapy water. I do not use a dish washing machine for my knives, so I cannot vouch for Forschner's claim that their knives are dishwasher safe. My knives have never chipped or rusted. Once a year or more, I'll use Barkeeper's Friend to restore the smooth finish (if water no longer sheets off the knife). I have heard of people having pitting and rusting on Shuns, but when I asked them what they did, they said, "nothing - I just left them for in the sink while eating dinner". The types of steels used in high end knives do not do well if they aren't cleaned promptly. I believe Cutco uses a stainless steel that is great at resisting corrosion and is tough (can take a beating), but the drawback to that is that the knife will never be as sharp as the others reviewed even if a practiced sharpener spends time with the knife. Try the Forschner, it'll give you an idea of what we're looking for in a sharp blade without the fancy tricks like splitting an orange when you throw it at an upturned knife (which works wonderfully well on all my blades - even my $10 Henckels International carving knife).
I went to the local culinary goods store and tried some of their knives. Since I live in a small town, they only carry Wusthof. They had some other knives in their test kitchen, however, so I got to try:
1. Shun Chef's knife
2. Some ceramic santoku (I forgot the brand name)
3. Wusthof Santoku
4. Wusthof Chef's knife
5. My very own Cutco Chef's knife
I didn't put much planning into the test, so my results aren't as valid as Michael's. In any case, here is my subjective ranking of the knives, according to cutting power:
1. Ceramic santoku
2. Shun
3. Wusthofs
4. Cutco
The ceramic knife was the clear cutting-power champ. It was also cool because it looked like a kid's toy: it had a fire-engine red handle and an semi-translucent white blade. I didn't really like the feel, however, and I would be too afraid of dropping it to buy one.
The Shun seemed very sharp and was fun to cut with. It was also, in my opinion, the best-looking knife. I liked the damascus-style blade.
Although the Wusthofs seemed a little duller than the Shun, I liked their heft and balance. The Wusthof santoku was my favorite out of all the knives I tried.
My Cutco knife was noticeably duller than the others. I've only had it for two weeks, and I don't use it often (I keep it pretty for demonstrations); it should be close to factory sharpness. It was mostly just unimpressive.
I'm planning a trip to Sur la Table on Friday, so I'll get to try lots of other brands. I probably shouldn't buy a whole set right now, but I might get a chef's knife or santoku. I'm excited to try a Shun santoku.
My Final Conclusion on Cutco (if anyone's interested): Although the high corrosion resistance and low maintenance of Cutco knives probably makes them attractive to the average home consumer (i.e., most people want to be able to wash their knives in the dishwasher, leave them in the sink, etc.) they also cost way too much. That a Cutco knife (Petite Chef-$99) made of a cheaper, stamped steel is sold at the same price
Most common price: $104 (available through a Cutco representative)
Most common price: $90 (amazon.com)
Most common price: $86 (amazon.com); $86 (MetroKitchen)
Most common price: $120 (amazon.com); $120 (MAC Knife)
Most common price: $100 (Cutlery and More); $110 (amazon.com)
Most common price: $261 (JapaneseChefsKnife.com); $270 (Nenohi)
Most common price: $29 (amazon.com)
Most common price: $120 (MetroKitchen); $124 (amazon.com)
Most common price: $50 (JapaneseChefsKnife.com), $59 (Korin); $100 (various shops in Japantown, San Francisco, CA)
Most common price: $130 (JapaneseChefsKnife.com); $250 (Jorgensen International)
Most common price: $95 (amazon.com)
![[img:c0cccf7cdb]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/4026/stones19nn.th.jpg[/im...db]](http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/4026/stones19nn.jpg){kind=link}
![[img:c0cccf7cdb]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/6459/stones23wx.th.jpg[/im...db]](http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/6459/stones23wx.jpg){kind=link}
![[img:c0cccf7cdb]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/2811/01099109kb.th.jpg[/im...db]](http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/2811/01099109kb.jpg){kind=link}
